Jenn Turner- CFTE (00:01)
Hey, Kristin, thanks for joining me.
- (00:04)
Bye there.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (00:06)
So glad that you're here and welcome everyone. So I'll share a little bit about Kristin and then we'll jump into an embodied practice and then start the conversation. Kristin Zappone is a registered dietitian nutritionist, certified intuitive eating counselor, certified mindful eating coach, and 200 hour YTT certified.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (00:31)
Kristin specializes in helping individuals get to the root of food and body challenges by untangling the development of their relationship with food. Kristin worked as a clinical dietitian with children and adults with cystic fibrosis before moving into work as a wellness and chronic disease case manager and supervisor. She has always been passionate about nutrition and its impact on our lives because of its essentiality.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (00:58)
Her desire to create a refreshed approach to food and body stemmed from understanding the ongoing difficulty of connecting to one's own body exacerbated by diet culture. Kristin is the co-creator of Trauma Informed Mindful Eating, which you will hear us refer to as Time on this podcast. So welcome. I'm so excited for this conversation. Before we dive on in, I'll hand it over to you and you can lead us through.
- (01:28)
Wonderful. Thank you so much, Jen. So Jen said she always likes to start this with an embodied practice. And so I was going to offer one today. You can participate in whatever capacity that works for you and in whatever positioning or I'll kind of walk you through a couple of different options, but kind of focus around movements that I'm making just because it's a little bit more personal. I'll give you a little bit more insight into what we're experiencing.
- (01:58)
So you are invited to just take a moment to recognize the orientation of your body in your space. So whether you're seated or standing, maybe you're walking, maybe you're reclined. And then maybe taking a moment to focus in on an area of your body that is supported by a surface beneath you. So maybe you bring some attention to the backs of your legs, into your chair.
- (02:27)
or into your back if you're reclined. I'm going to bring the attention to my feet. And if your legs are crossed, you can explore the idea of uncrossing them. So maybe you have both feet grounded. But if you would prefer to just focus on one, that's also an option. And we'll start to play around with the idea of creating some pressure in the feet.
- (02:53)
And so you can start with whichever foot you would like. I'm going to start on my left side. And I'm going to focus on pushing just the heel of my left foot into the ground. You can experiment with whatever degree of pressure that you would like. And maybe you even explore the idea of bringing the toes and the ball of the foot completely off the ground.
- (03:21)
And as you press more or less into the heel, maybe you'll also just take notice of some of the sensation into that top of the leg, kind of recognizing how the muscles are contracting. And then if you would like, can shift that pressure from the heel of your foot, maybe towards the ball of your foot.
- (03:46)
And you can play around with, you want to keep the heel grounded? Or would you even like to press into the ball of the foot and the toes so much that the heel now comes off of the ground?
- (03:59)
And then maybe just kind of rocking back and forth between the two. So feeling the sensation shift from the heel to the toe and back. Again, at whatever pace, whatever pressure works for you and you can adjust it, change it, just kind of settle into something that feels natural or feels grounding for you in the moment.
- (04:28)
Maybe going through one more round. And then just coming to stillness on that side. And if you would like, you can play around with the other side as well. You can experiment, but just because you did it on the one side doesn't mean you need to on the next. For me, I'm going to take that right foot. Maybe this time I'm actually going to start with my heel lifted and the ball and the toes of my right foot grounded.
- (04:56)
can notice any different sensation maybe in the back of my lower leg, so in my calf where that might feel different. And then as I shift that pressure back into my heel and I lift the toes and I lift the ball of my foot, maybe the sensation goes away from the back of my calf but it comes down into the top of my leg.
- (05:19)
And again, if you would like, you can kind of go through that forward to back motion, almost as if you're walking on one side. Again, whatever pace, whatever pressure feels right to you. And then maybe just playing around with the idea of doing both feet simultaneously. You can have them in opposition. So kind of, again, almost this idea of walking.
- (05:46)
You can have this idea of rocking from forward to back, so from the heels to the toes, or just any sort of no pattern, just exploring whatever sensation, whatever pressure, just giving yourself the opportunity to be present for a few moments.
- (06:10)
And then maybe going through one more cycle wherever you are. And then coming back to a little bit of stillness, shaking anything out that you need to for the moment, and then allowing yourself to come back to present.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (06:31)
Thank you. was awesome. I love the pressure on my feet thing and like the autonomy and control between the two feet. It's wonderful.
- (06:41)
when I know you said you have a tennis ball thing. even adding that in, you can always make it more creative, you know?
Jenn Turner- CFTE (06:43)
Yeah.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (06:48)
Totally, yes, I do love my deep pressure experience. So I'm just going to pause like the recording thing or just the what do you see on my screen? Do you see like a pink box or nothing? That's fine.
- (06:53)
Hahaha
- (07:03)
No, but you're very, you're very blurry. I okay, because on my side, I'm not blurry. But for whatever reason, you're blurry, but I don't see anything else. Otherwise.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (07:14)
Okay, great. Yeah, I think the
Jenn Turner- CFTE (07:20)
interesting I can preview takes. The quality that uploads is much higher than what we have here. Yeah, You don't have to worry about it. But yes, it is a little alarming if you're used to Zoom, it's just, it records a really high quality thing. What we see is not. Okay. So we can re-engage here. I'll just like kind of circle us into the conversation.
- (07:27)
Okay, well it's funny now you're not blurry so I don't know whatever it's doing.
- (07:39)
Okay.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (07:49)
But and I'll ask you about how you use that too. OK. So I'm curious how you use that in interocept.
- (08:02)
I'm sorry, that's my dog scratching. He's digging to nowhere. Charlie! It's you.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (08:12)
Great. Okay.
- (08:13)
He's not done. He's not done. It takes like, Charlie, come.
- (08:20)
He did this at the very end of our conference presentation, and I was like, and that, I messed up the slides because I was in control and I was rapidly trying to mute, and thankfully I wasn't talking, but that's, yeah, he's just digging.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (08:25)
Uh-huh.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (08:34)
Okay, should we give him more time to see if he more to dig?
- (08:37)
I think you should be done. It's usually, it's usually like two brief stints and then these guys.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (08:41)
Okay, great, perfect. Get to it, buddy.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (08:48)
So I'm curious how you use that or how you might utilize that introceptive activity that we just did. How would you use that in practice or maybe in introducing interoception to clients?
- (09:03)
Yeah, so enhancing interoception is one of the nine principles of trauma informed mindful eating. And we utilize it very regularly throughout our program and throughout like the way that we do work with people. And one of the really interesting things that we talk about when we introduce interoception is the idea that it can be generalized. And so although kind of the practice that we just walked through kind of figuratively there where
- (09:33)
we are playing around with the feet, although that has nothing to do with food at like surface level.
- (09:41)
The idea of being able to connect to your present moment experience, feel your body, be present with those sensations, that can be generalized. So as we practice interoception in one area, interoception around food also gets enhanced. And so it really just allows people to, we actually often start away from food when we start with the practice of interoception, because food can be so triggering. It can be so challenging.
- (10:11)
it's been so hard. And so trying to be present in a situation that already feels incredibly heavy or challenging or overwhelming kind of becomes counterproductive because we're then no longer present. We're no longer really able to tap into what we're noticing, what we're feeling. We're just overwhelmed. And so when we really step back and we take a look at, OK, let's do a practice that has nothing to do with food.
- (10:35)
but let's strengthen those skills. That's where we can then build and then layer in food as people are ready, as they want to explore with it. And it just really creates the confidence there to continue to like layer upon.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (10:51)
That's great. That makes so much sense. And just for folks that may not be familiar, interoception is such a big part of the work that we do at the Center for Trauma and Embodiment in all of our programs. we'll talk as we dive in more specifically how that relates to kind hunger cues and things with mindful eating. But so much of what we're aiming to support folks in is being present.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (11:17)
to their embodied experience, to their sensory experiences, whole internal experience that oftentimes trauma can pull us out of, stress, triggers around food, all kinds of things. And so, you know, when Kristin is talking about bringing us into this interoceptive experience, right? It's really that being present, knowing you're present, but feeling it in your body too, which is unique and different.
- (11:43)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (11:44)
than other forms of mindfulness, I think that we often utilize around food or around mental health in general. just to give that context of like, what the heck is interoception? Yeah.
- (11:59)
Well, and one of the things that we also talk about is the fact that with food, the expectation is to never be fully present in the experience the whole time. You we talk about kind of coming in and out of interception because there may be, you know, if you sit down at this beautiful meal and it's warm and colorful and you may want to take a moment to say, I really want to be present. And also we might be eating lunch through a working meeting, right? So we're not able to stay fully present in that moment.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (12:09)
and I'm
- (12:29)
But can we check in periodically? Right. Whereas, you know, I think we've all kind of been probably had the experience of like eating something hand to mouth, hand to mouth, hand to mouth. And you look down and your plate's empty and you're like, well, wait, I didn't think I ate it all. Like, I thought there should be more. And so again, it's not the idea that you have to stay present the whole time. It's not the idea that, you know, you have to chew your food a certain number of times or, you know, put your fork down in between bites every time or anything like that. But it's can we
- (12:59)
in and out so that we have the opportunity to really explore how is this food landing in my body, how is my body responding, do I still want to keep eating, am I full, you know, just all those kind of different questions that we would then explore later.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (13:13)
Great. That's so helpful. Agreed. And I think so much about introception with like the yoga work that we do. also, it's, it's, it's sometimes just dipping in and out because it's also about what can we tolerate? And most of us are going to want to be oriented externally, or it's just a lot to be embodied and feel your, your body for a prolonged period of time. So,
- (13:29)
Mm-hmm.
- (13:40)
Right, right.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (13:42)
but I just sort dove in there. wanted to give a bit of context and share a little bit or just kind of hear from you a little about how you got into this work, how you found your way to creating and co-creating this program. But yeah, just to hear a little bit of your origin story if you're up for it.
- (13:45)
Hahaha.
- (14:01)
Yeah, absolutely. So my background, I'm a registered dietitian and so much of my education was focused around kind of what you would expect from a traditional kind of healthy eating, right? And as I advanced my education, once I was into my career, I was exposed to different concepts. I was, learned more about intuitive eating. I learned more about mindful eating and where I was working at that time was in kind of this more corporate environment.
- (14:31)
that I was doing a lot of health coaching and we were focusing on lot of healthy eating, physical activity, chronic disease management, quote unquote weight management, and the expectation was to still coach in a manner, I mean we did a lot of motivational interviewing, so a lot of the open-ended questions trying to help people work through behavior change, but it was still so heavily focused on creating an objective, creating
- (15:01)
an ideal way of eating or creating an ideal body weight. And so at the time I was working with the wonderful Helena Benton, who is my partner in all of this, and I came to her and I was just like, you know, I want to create something different. You know, I don't, this is no longer sitting well with me as kind of like an ethical approach and people, I'm just continuously watching people struggle and watching people not meet their goals and
- (15:30)
and feel like a failure. And this is, there's gotta be a better way. And so we just started collaborating and having really in-depth conversations about food, our own relationships with food, what trauma does to the body, how diet culture impacts the body, how expectations and smart goals, as wonderful as they can be, can actually take us out of our experiences. And as we kind of went back and forth,
- (16:00)
we just started to create kind of the foundation of what we didn't know at the time was going to be this time program.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (16:11)
I was muted. I realized I was muted there. Sorry, this is going to be interesting recording, I think, just like our month. That's incredible to hear about and how challenging it can be when you're working in an environment where you're wanting to meet goals and move in a direction, but it's not feeling right or sitting right with you. I can imagine that must have been challenging to say the least.
- (16:12)
Hehehehehe
Jenn Turner- CFTE (16:40)
let alone if it's not really resonating with how you'd like to approach food or something that you know could be different.
- (16:40)
Mm-hmm.
- (16:48)
Right.
- (16:49)
And so it just became the desire to create something that did allow people to have more autonomy. And, you know, again, for a while in that environment, it was really a balance between how can I meet the expectations that are placed upon me in this corporate environment versus how can I actually help people in a manner that I feel like is going to make a difference. And so when Helena brought up the opportunity because she has she's been involved
- (17:18)
with the Center for Trauma and Embodiment because she's a TCTSY facilitator. She's worked with Dave for so long and she was like, I think this might be an amazing partnership and it's just grown from there. So it has been, it's been such an incredible fit because I think when you look at all of the information that is out there about nutrition.
- (17:42)
there is a consistent theme missing, right? There's always eat this, not that there's always eat more of this. So even when it's the idea of it's not coming from like a restrictive lens, it's coming from more of an additive lens, but there's always an expectation on the other end of this is what your body ultimately needs. And I think it's just so significant how that message combined with, you know, a lifelong duration.
- (18:12)
of that message, then combined with possible histories that make the uniqueness of the individual, it just, really creates a challenging situation and it doesn't really feel like there's anything out there that comes from that angle. And so, so that's really where we were like, okay, we see an opportunity, we see an area that we might be able to help and let's give it a try.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (18:38)
Yeah, I love this. mean, I think there to me what resonates so much about that is this taking away the top down approach of like an external person is the expert of your body and knows what you should do in order to meet these goals. I think I guess I wonder too, if some of the work that you do or something you think about is around changing the goals or changing the orientation that someone might come in with.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (19:06)
or working with them around their goals, but also helping them to sort of pace that or shift into a sense of autonomy versus I want to lose weight. I want to gain weight. want to have my macros, whatever.
- (19:19)
Yeah, and I would say that's definitely one of the most challenging pieces, right? Is because no matter what, there's still a BMI chart, there's still a doctor visit, there's still an indicator that's going to, and again, it doesn't even matter if you're in a quote unquote normal size body, there's still the desire to have a smaller body. And so that is absolutely one of the things that I would say we are often.
- (19:46)
you know, people still have as a goal, right? I want to change my body. And as we go through the work and we kind of look at, you know, what are the reasons that you want to change your body? What are the expectations for changing your body? What are you willing to give up?
- (20:06)
in order to change your body, I think we start to land on an area that just feels different, right? We're not saying that you can't have those desires, right? If that's your desire, that's your desire. What we want to help or change or kind of look at differently is what does it take to get there?
- (20:29)
does that even feel good? Because I think one of the things that we often hear when it comes to individuals that are in like eating disorder recovery or anything along those lines is they will say, when I was at my smallest, I was feeling my worst and potentially receiving so many compliments for, you look incredible. you look this, but I didn't feel it. So we try to get to this point where is what you're feeling matching your goals and objectives.
- (20:59)
if my desire is to be in a smaller body, but in order to be in a smaller body, I actually feel weak. I feel tired. I feel obsessed with food. I feel this, that, or the other. Is that something that we actually want for ourselves or where can we explore maybe finding a middle ground where, okay, I'm less focused on what my body size is and more focused around what my body feels like. And can I use that more as a driver to kind of explore?
- (21:27)
how I wanna eat, how I wanna move, what I wanna do. So again, it's just trying to get the power back into their hands because a lot of times in those situations, the power is not in their hands. The power is somewhere else.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (21:39)
Well, the way that you, I mean, I think about a lot of things. I certainly think about the, you know, sort of providers and treatment, but even for each one of us that lives in this world, the power, the way that you speak about diet culture and diet culture as really akin to complex trauma, I think is so fascinating. And I wonder if you can just share a little bit about that.
- (22:02)
Yeah, and so this is actually something when Helena and I first started having conversations, I didn't even connect the dots, right? But when you think of how long have other people or society or family members or whatever made comments about your body? How long have people made comments about your food choices?
- (22:24)
How bad have you felt about yourself when you go to put on a pair of pants or shorts or whatever that fit last year that don't fit this year? And it's like this constant pressure to always be thinner, always be smaller, always be more fit.
- (22:42)
It just becomes like an unattainable measuring stick no matter where you go. And as Helena and I were having these conversations, we started to really draw the parallels between how that then causes you to override your interoception, how that takes away your choice, how that diminishes your power, how...
- (23:05)
that it just really takes you away from your body. so initially, I wouldn't have even recognized, you know, it's taken me a little bit of time to connect the fact that that is in fact a power dynamic. That is in fact an example of complex trauma, especially when you look at how pervasive that message is over the duration of somebody's lifetime.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (23:31)
blows my mind when I start to think about it. I think so much around the systemic piece and how diet culture is embedded in everything, but then it's also so intimately relational. I think about my own life and conversations that I might have had with my grandmother when her fear around my developing body was projected because she had also internalized diet culture and she wanted me to internalize it. It may have come from a protective, loving place, but it was still that
- (24:00)
100%.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (24:01)
same thing, right? So we have the bigger system, but then we have these really intense and painful intimate experiences with our family and people around us.
- (24:12)
And even in the intuitive eating book, you know, they provide, it's written by two dieticians, Evelyn Tribli and Elise Resch, and it is a framework. So they have 10 principles and it is a framework to try and help heal the relationship to food and body. And they give a lot of those examples about, you know,
- (24:34)
A mother was trying to say, I'm not gonna restrict my child's intake. I'm not gonna restrict anything. I'm gonna allow them to have access to food. And then they go into the pediatrician's office for a visit and their weight has climbed. And now the doctors are saying, your child is quote unquote too big. And that exact, I don't want them to have the same experiences that I've had. I don't want them to struggle. I don't want them to exist in a bigger body because I've had all of these negative experiences.
- (25:04)
And so this is what I know how to do. So I think it all like it, you know, so often comes from a compassionate, protective. I don't want you to have the same challenges that I've had. I don't want you to feel too big going to the pool and feel comfortable, you know, swimming with your friends. I want you to be able to have that.
- (25:25)
And I don't think you're going to have that if you live in a bigger body. So how do I help you be in a smaller body? So it's, it's, it's just so intertwined and so complex and so like, it's so personal. Absolutely. So, so personal.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (25:40)
Wow. Yeah, and the ways that disconnecting from your body, whether it's the shame of carrying a body around in this system, in this diet culture that is rejected, judged, shamed, but also if we are entering into the space of like, well, I don't really want to pay attention if my body's hungry because I'm afraid what that will mean or what I'll do. So potent and painful.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (26:10)
And also there's, you you talk a lot about like foods that you don't feel safe around or that like people may not feel safe around. How do you, can you share more about that as well and as it relates kind of to this piece around diet culture and complex trauma?
- (26:25)
Yeah, so one of the nine principles of trauma-informed mindful eating is to allow food. So we don't come at it as a restrictive location, right? So we do a lot of work in helping people recognize that food played a role, right? So there's oftentimes a lot of shame or a lot of guilt for eating or in general, right? Like just pathologizing eating, right? We just feel bad because we've coped with food, right? There's such a negative
- (26:55)
stigma around emotional eating. And so what we try to do is help create the recognition and the context that
- (27:07)
you know, this is a skills-based program. Time is a skills-based program. We recognize the fact that if you have survived trauma, you have survived very difficult things and you used what skills you had available to help you survive. And if food was something that helped you find co-regulation, that helped you find safety, that helped you find, you know, any sort of positive movement to get you onto the next step,
- (27:36)
that's something to recognize, that's something to acknowledge. And so when we talk about allowing food, it's making sure that you know that at the end of a long day, if you are feeling overwhelmed and you are feeling stressed, that food is allowed to be a coping mechanism. It's allowed to be utilized in a way that helps you co-regulate, that allows you to de-escalate anxiety or whatever. And so when we look at it through that lens, we can also recognize
- (28:06)
though, not all foods feel safe at all times. So, you know, I feel like I hear all the time, like, I can't keep ice cream in the house, so, you know, fill in the blank, whatever it might be. And so if there's a food that you don't feel safe around, we don't necessarily need to allow that food, but we want to allow food, right? And then we work towards the place of
- (28:30)
what are the foods that you do feel safe around? What are the foods that don't feel safe? And let's explore the different contexts. Let's explore the different things that happen throughout the day that maybe one day ice cream feels safe and the next day ice cream doesn't. So I think that's like the other thing with food is that there's so many expectations that like once you quote unquote figure it out, like you've got it. And it's like, but that's not the way we live our life. The fact that
- (29:00)
we sleep different every night, we move different every day, we have different mental loads and stress loads and different expectations placed upon us, that's going to change the way we interact with food. So even if you find something that you say, this felt great today, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's gonna feel great tomorrow. And when you put those kind of guardrails on yourself to say, but now I figured it out and this is how I have to do it.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (29:27)
Hmm.
- (29:27)
It just then takes away your choice. It takes away your interoception. It takes away your power.
- (29:33)
And so the idea of allowing food, it's like, again, you're in control of what you allow, when, to what extent, and the name of the game is like finding out then what feels comfortable. And oftentimes it's like not the food item, right? It's other things that day or other things in that moment that make it feel safe or unsafe. And how can we kind of navigate all those nuances to get to a place where we feel more in control?
Jenn Turner- CFTE (30:02)
Wow, there's so much in there. It's so, it's really moving to hear you talk about it because it is such a potent, there's so many layers. I think if I like rewind a little bit, even the, the, when you were first talking there about,
Jenn Turner- CFTE (30:20)
This idea that, you know, we have to interact with food all the time, and it's going to be different. There are going to be variables. And I guess I could imagine that, you know, it seems in my mind that so many approaches to eating and nutrition are really focused on programs, sort of like, let's have this program that then you can do, and then it'll take out all the stress. But then that also erases your ability to actually have choice.
- (30:40)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (30:49)
or interoception or be responsive to what you're feeling in any given moment. And the spaciousness that you just even created now for me mentally was like, wow, that's radical, really. I mean, it really is from what I understand to be out there in terms of different approaches to food.
- (31:10)
Yeah. And another one of our principles is build endurance and tolerance as you're ready, as you want. And when you think of, you know, again, you might be feeling like you're killing it, right? Like you feel like you're eating in a way that feels good to you. You feel like you're moving in a way that feels good to you. And then maybe an event comes up, right? Or maybe you see a picture of yourself, right? There's all these things that can then take us out of that experience of feeling like,
- (31:40)
I've got this under control, or maybe we see somebody that we haven't seen for an extended period of time and they make some sort of comment, right? And it's recognizing that, again,
- (31:53)
there's going to be things and challenges that are constantly going to have a second guess ourselves. And it's what can we come back to? Right? What does feel safe? What does help me feel in control? And we do talk about the idea that, you know, sometimes having guardrails, having some form of a plan that can feel safe because the idea of removing everything and just saying have whatever you want.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (32:00)
Hmm.
- (32:23)
whenever you want, like to some people that creates like a visceral like, my gosh, there's no way I could ever do that. But if you're following that, what does it take away from you? So it's like, there's just, it's always this shift, like what feels good, what doesn't, and that's where that practice of interoception and coming back into your body is so significant because that's, if you can tap into that,
- (32:52)
It's like, that's not gonna steer you wrong, right? Like that's gonna be your body telling you what it needs, when it needs it, whether an app is telling you you need to move more, you need to eat less, you need to have more of this kind of vegetable. Like what if that doesn't sit well in my body? What if I don't like that? What if that causes me GI distress that I'm like, I don't wanna feel that way. So it's like.
- (33:17)
As we go, again, the goal is like, can I feel more confident? Can I trust? So, you know, can I feel what my body is telling me? If I can feel it, do I trust it? If I trust it, do I know what I want to do with it? Those are kind of like those three questions that we kind of can revisit time and time again.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (33:35)
It's so powerful though to think about all the ways that trust gets eroded. I think about rest, for example, as something a little different, but that is just kind of coming up for me as you're talking. A lot of times we push through our need to rest because of productivity, capitalism, all the things, right? It's like, if I just keep going and then I'm productive, things will be okay or I'll be doing a good job.
- (33:40)
Hmm.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (34:00)
And I think there's so much fear around if I listen to myself, if I listen to my need to rest, then I won't be productive. I'll be lazy. I won't be efficient. I won't get things done. And I think that to me, you know, and that's just one example of distrust of what our body is telling us. And then thinking about food and the need to eat all throughout the day that we have as human beings and how challenging that can be.
- (34:17)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (34:28)
to rebuild or build for the first time a sense of trust and like, I can listen to what my body wants and needs and it's not gonna steer me astray. When we've had a whole lifetime of eat food that doesn't feel right to you, do things to your body and avoid foods that you desire and crave, like all of this.
- (34:47)
And I often have conversations with the co-creators of Trauma Informed PT about how
- (34:57)
So when we think of it, oftentimes like a caloric deficit, right? The idea of not eating enough gets paired with exercise. And so again, here I am, I feel tired, I feel weak, but I need to go to the gym. I need to exercise, I need to close my rings, I need to fill in the blank. And I'm doing so on an under-fueled body. So it's hard because movement at baseline can be hard, right? I mean, like, it's not always easy. And so if I'm under-fueled,
- (35:27)
makes it that much more challenging. And if I continue to override that, now I get into, I'm more prone to injury, which is where this PT conversation comes in. I'm more prone to chronic pain. I'm more prone to all these things because I'm now asking my body to do things without the energy that is required to do them effectively, to do them safe. And now,
- (35:52)
I feel pain, but I'm not going to listen to that pain because I'm so focused on still moving my body and not eating enough. So, I mean, the cycles that we really create, they're, you know, they're not in our best interest.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (36:06)
No.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (36:09)
I think so much of the ways that like these concepts of no pain, no gain, or even that suffering is like baked into attaining some external markers of what we want to look like, body we want to have. It's, that's a lot of unlearning.
- (36:25)
so much and learning. I think with social media right now and AI and lighting and filters and edits, mean, you know, there's, think there's a lot of good that is also out there, right? So it's kind of like two side-by-side images of like, these are the exact same day, two seconds apart. I changed my angle. I changed my lighting. I kind of gave myself a little bit of a filter and look at how different my body looks.
- (36:52)
but you're only seeing the altered image. And so again, then it's more body comparison. Now it's more, should be able to do this. I should be able to override when it's like, that's not real what you're even looking at on the other side of the screen. And so again, it just, it's more of those situations where we're taken away from our present moment experience. We're overriding our body. We are.
- (37:18)
you know, setting unrealistic expectations on ourselves. And one of the other things that we talk about is grieving, like grieving in general.
- (37:29)
It could be grieving foods that we used to love that actually don't feel good. It could be grieving an expectation of a body size that maybe we obtained, but in order to stay there, we had to engage in incredibly unhealthy behaviors that in the long term just became not worth it. It can be grieving relationships because of needing an appropriate boundary to keep ourselves safe. But there is grief in the
- (37:58)
process. And I think that's the other thing is it's like so often things get looked at as if you can't achieve it, you did something wrong. And it's like, that's not real. You know, like my body is my body. If we ate and moved and did everything the exact same, my body is not going to look like somebody else's body no matter what I do. And so, but that might be
Jenn Turner- CFTE (38:08)
Hmm.
- (38:25)
something that I wanted, right? I might've wanted that change.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (38:31)
So potent. There's so much that you say in there too that I also want to pick up on, but I'm curious about.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (38:44)
I guess I'm curious around how oftentimes I've seen even things that are mindful eating or more intentional can still have this are like guised in health and wellness, but it's also it's still around achieving a thing. But it's like the hyper focus becomes on, you know, getting certain nutrients and all of this. But that still leaves out the listening to your body part, I guess. Right. Is that
- (39:13)
It does. Yeah, it's like there's still an objective to do it the right way. Like the right quote unquote, the right way. Like you've got to eat mindfully the right way. And if you do it that way, that means you're going to eat less. That means you're going to eat higher fiber. That means you're going to eat more protein. That means you're going to eat more vegetables. It's like, so if I'm mindfully eating a cupcake, I'm doing it wrong, you know, like it's, it's, and so it's very, it does often feel that way. And again, I don't,
Jenn Turner- CFTE (39:18)
Mm.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (39:38)
love this.
- (39:43)
necessarily think that that's the objective, right? I think so, I mean, even with intuitive eating, you know, they talk about how often people try to turn intuitive eating into a diet. I think it just comes back to the ideas that
- (39:58)
We don't trust ourselves because everything in society, maybe everything in our past, maybe all of our previous exposures, all of our previous relationships have told us that we're not supposed to. And so we feel like there has to be something that is driving what we're doing.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (40:11)
and
- (40:19)
And so again, I don't think a lot of the, especially like with the mindful eating and I mean, obviously intuitive eating talks very much openly about they are in no way a diet. They are anti-diet culture and yet people still try to make it diet. It's like there's a right or wrong way to do it. And that's not the message. And so that's kind of where we felt like if we added in maybe some other layers around really focusing on the body and focusing on
- (40:49)
the tolerance piece and what takes us out of our body and focusing on the power share because I think that's one of the most challenging, like there's a lot of challenging things about food, right? We have to eat every single day, multiple times a day. People comment on our bodies all the time. We are constantly inundated with, even from healthy perspectives,
- (41:16)
we need to achieve something. So there's just always something that is kind of counteracting all the work that goes into healing your relationship with food and body. It's like every step forward you take, there's about 50 things that you have to battle at the next corner to say, I can keep going. I can trust myself. I can do this. I mean, it's, hard. It's hard work. And I, I think there's so much acknowledgement in the fact that like,
- (41:44)
That doesn't mean that I don't feel these things, right? I, Helena and I are the co-creators of this program. That doesn't mean that if I put on a pair of pants that used to fit, that doesn't fit. don't think to myself like, what is up with this? You know, like what has happened? What has changed and why has it changed? And am I okay with the change? Like, what do I need to do? So there is never, I don't, you know, they impact me less. Like one of the things we talk about is how many life domains does it impact and
- (42:14)
how long do those impacts last? So the example that I think that we use in one of the course conversations is stepping on the scale. So if I step on the scale and it says a number that I don't like, right? So the scale goes up. And if you step on the scale and you go, OK, whatever, and you carry on with your life, right? Like it didn't even impact you. Or do you step on the scale and you don't like the number and now you hate everything that you try on?
- (42:43)
You skip breakfast, you're snarky to your partner, you're road raging on the way to work, you're frustrated, you know, like, and how long does that last? Does that then trigger you to go, I need to, you know, eat less carbs. I need to eat more protein. Like,
- (43:01)
What is the impact of a single trigger and how can we be more resilient? And when we come back to it, it's focusing on our interoception. How does my body feel? So what if the scale went up? How does my body feel? Do I feel energized? Do I feel comfortable? Do I feel safe? Do I feel like there's all these things that we can keep coming back to, but there's always going to be something that's going to try and take us away from it.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (43:25)
Right, right, right, and focus on that external marker. So it is such a different orientation. And what I hear from you is also that as you are really intentional about educating other providers in how to show up and not replicate that pattern of another external force saying, well, you haven't met your goal or you're not here yet, or look at the amount of protein you didn't have this week, as opposed to it's like curiosity, wondering what it's like for someone.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (43:55)
To me, that's so heartwarming, particularly around our relationship with food, but that's the trauma-informed protocol, right? It's like, what is right for me? And it may be different than what is right for you based on a whole host of things, let alone our own variance in history and experience and our relationship with food. I think...
- (44:12)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (44:21)
What I find also so refreshing and completely agree with and try to approach this in my own clinical work as well is this idea that yeah, food is a coping mechanism and people will lean on it. We all do it. And if as a provider who's supporting someone in food and their relationship with food, we're bringing in shame to that, like there's already so much of that when we eat too much sweets or too much whatever the thing is.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (44:50)
So I love the way that you kind of spoke about that a little earlier as well around like de-stigmatizing the thing that everyone does.
- (44:50)
right.
- (44:59)
Right? Yeah. Well, and, and, and so you commented like, what is right for me? The other thing that we also like to kind of like put a little asterisk by is what is right for me in this moment? Right? So it goes even deeper than what might be right for me in this moment right now is grabbing a bag of chips and eating. And, you know, maybe
Jenn Turner- CFTE (45:00)
normalizing it.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (45:11)
Love it.
- (45:24)
then I do something else and I feel different and now the food is no longer a thing. We also talk about like what else can we do with the food like so if you're kind of exploring the idea of keeping food as like an emotional regulator and also building in other skills.
- (45:46)
And so say I really like to be outside. If I'm having a bad day, I can go sit outside. can put my feet in the grass. That helps me chill out. But what if I can't quite bring myself to just do that and the food still feels more powerful? The food still feels most effective. Can I combine them?
- (46:09)
Can I then take food outside with me? And maybe I need less food than in that moment, because if my pattern is I eat to a place where I no longer feel comfortable, right? So maybe it's helping me in the moment, but when I turn around and look, now I feel bad. I don't feel comfortable in my stomach. I feel shame and guilt for quote unquote overindulging.
- (46:30)
So what if I still use food, but I take food outside? And so maybe I need a little less food. So the amount of food that I'm taking in actually feels okay. It feels good. It feels supportive. And I use it with this other skill that I also know works, right? So that we also talk about the fact that it doesn't have to be an either or it can be a both and. And like that just adds to then.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (46:46)
Hmm.
- (46:55)
Okay, well, when I did that, this was the outcome. And maybe there's times where it shifts and we recognize, you know what, I actually don't even need the food in this moment.
- (47:06)
But again, that's not the objective. The goal isn't working towards not needing food. And so we always try to make sure that that statement is really clear, because I think a lot of times people then expect in order for me to do this correctly, I'm supposed to start with all the food and gradually work till there's no food. And that's not the objective. What the objective is, is helping you get through that difficult time.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (47:28)
Mmm. Mmm. It's so potent.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (47:33)
I wonder if you can talk also about the privilege of healthy food or, you know, fresh food. Because I think that's such a focal point as well around that and access is not the same for everyone.
- (47:51)
No, it's not. And I think a lot of that comes up in the medical community. You know, like if somebody comes in and talks about, you know, I again, I was talking with a medical provider that works at like a children's hospital and the kid was talking about how he eats.
- (48:14)
like it was like, it was kind of like a walking taco situation. was like Cheetos, but then somehow there was Kool-Aid. don't, I don't, don't actually understand what it was, but, but it was like, you know, and, the medical provider was so put off and it was like,
- (48:31)
Yes, but also that is what that person has access to, right? And so if that is what the person has access to, that is what feeds their stomach in that moment, who are we to say that that isn't a right choice? Because what if that's what their choice is? So I think it's just...
Jenn Turner- CFTE (48:47)
Yes.
- (48:53)
You know, and again, like when I was in school, like it was like healthy eating on a budget and how do we order the healthier item from McDonald's versus the unhealthy items and how do we shop at a place? They're the most important aspect is having a fueled body and you have to fuel your body with what you have access to. And as.
- (49:19)
That's another way when you think of it, that's another way that you could actually be overriding. Introception in a way to protect yourself from a safety standpoint, like say you don't have a lot of access to food and you eat something that doesn't make you feel good, but what is your alternative? It's like almost you have to choose the least of the worst.
- (49:43)
Well, if I don't eat, I'm hungry. And if I eat something that maybe doesn't feel good in my body, at least I have fuel. So I think there's just, it does impact. And then food scarcity, obviously, if that's something that you've grown up with or experienced or have a fear of.
- (50:04)
that then impacts your relationship to food as well. And we talk about that in like another, just because there's access to food in the house doesn't mean that food scarcity couldn't have happened. like, you know, I feel like I've talked to so many people that say like, my parents wouldn't let me have Twinkies. So my, my siblings could have Twinkies because they were in smaller bodies, but I wasn't allowed to have them.
- (50:32)
So there was access to food, but there was still a component of food scarcity. again, it just, you know, the privilege within food, within access to healthcare, within access to conversations with people that are supportive, you know, I mean, that's a systemic issue that, you know, is overwhelmingly difficult.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (50:37)
Mm.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (50:59)
Right. And how much you can either kind of validate someone's experience or perpetuate harm with how you show up. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think about, you know, I grew up with a lot of food scarcity and what's also challenging is when you when you don't have enough food in your home or you're you go to bed and you don't have food in your stomach, it's actually really hard to sleep. And so then you start to think about like, OK, well,
Jenn Turner- CFTE (51:24)
If I'm getting enough food, even if it's not nourishing or whatever, maybe then I can sleep. And that's also really important for human survival and development and growth. And it's part of a larger ecosystem, right? It's not a standalone. Yeah.
- (51:36)
Right, Yeah, so it just, again, there's so many layers. There's so much depth. again, food is essential, right? It's one of the things that you can't go without long term. And it just adds to the complexity of the choice and the decisions and access and all the things.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (52:01)
Absolutely. I love this conversation. I feel like we could keep going. I have so many more questions. Maybe we should do a part two at some point. But I'm wondering if you want to share a little bit about the training for folks who might be interested in just and we'll of course link to it and everything in the bio. But if there's anything you wanted to share, I know there's a move you all are moving to doing some self paced learning aspects. But if there's anything you want to share.
- (52:31)
Yeah, so we have two cohorts under our belt and we are constantly learning and adapting and trying to, you know, make things.
- (52:41)
as helpful and supportive as possible. It is a 20-hour training, so we are accredited for registered dietitians, for yoga alliance, yoga therapy, TCTSY recertification, and then our ASWB, so for social work, is pending. And that was really important to us from an accreditation standpoint because we do want to try and broaden the reach to help professionals that are
- (53:11)
also going to be working with individuals. But the way we have the program set up, it is also just for individuals. So we talk a lot about, again, interoception, we focus in a lot around how trauma impacts the relationship with food and body, how diet culture can be a form of trauma. just really get into one of the things that we don't talk a lot of specifics about is food.
- (53:41)
And again, if we kind of circle back to the conversation of the nuances of what might be helped, like what might feel good or not as good in that particular moment for a unique individual, like you can see as to why we don't focus a lot about food, like.
- (53:59)
We're not talking about recipes. We're not talking about macros. We're not going there. But we do, we have a foundation of nine principles that we always just continue to come back to that help create a framework for moving through the material, to really just try and help ground the material each step of the way. There's also, right, so a lot of it is prerecorded. We do have some live components, and again, we're trying to also
- (54:29)
So get a self-paced, fully self-paced version out there. And then there's also some clinical readings that we find to be really helpful to just kind of tie back to some of the research and the science and kind of the frameworks that we've used to help create the program itself.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (54:45)
So great. I'm so, so excited that you're bringing this innovative and much needed approach out into the world. And thank you for joining me today. We'll link to you and to the time program so folks can be in touch and learn more and hopefully join in.
- (55:04)
Wonderful, thank you so much for having us and just partnering with us. mean, it has been such an honor and such a privilege to be associated with CFTE. again, I just have a sharing a mission and wanting to help people is, we just wanna reduce some of the suffering and the challenges and it's such an honor to work with you guys.
Jenn Turner- CFTE (55:25)
I'm so glad that you're here.
