Jenn (00:53)
All right. Hey Martin, welcome.
Martin (00:56)
Hey Jen, how are you doing?
Jenn (00:58)
I'm doing good. I'm really so excited to have this conversation with you. Thanks for joining me.
Martin (01:04)
A pleasure.
Jenn (01:06)
Great, so I'll read a little bit about kind of your work and then we'll dive on in. So Martin Alley Sims is the founder of the Dope Coach Academy, a neurosequential model and sports specialist. Wow, I didn't like the way I said that. I'm gonna try that again. Sorry, Rachel. Okay. Martin Allie Sims is the founder of the Dope Coach Academy.
Jenn (01:32)
A neurosequential model and sports specialist, neurosomatic intelligence practitioner, and USA basketball gold coach. He helps coaches, athletes, schools, and organizations to apply neuroscience and trauma-informed practices to improve performance, mental wellness, and human development. Martin serves on the board of directors for the Attachment and Trauma Network.
Jenn (01:57)
And has been recognized nationally for his innovative work using sport as a platform for healing, resilience, and lifelong success. I can't wait to have this conversation, Martin. but I think you're gonna start us out with a little experiential moment here.
Martin (02:13)
Yeah, yeah. You mentioned neurosomatic intelligence practitioner and ultimately it's it's nervous system regulation, in ways that you basically use parts of your body somatically to calm your nervous system. And the cool thing about what I like about neurosomatic is we do an assessment. So we kinda get a baseline where you are before we do an exercise, and then
Martin (02:41)
We do the exercise and then we try to test the baseline. And the one I'll be trying with you today is we're gonna do burst breathing. I'm gonna turn away from the mic so it doesn't sound so terrible. but I'll demonstrate what burst breathing is. It's a very quick inhale, exhale, inhale through the nose, exhale through the through the mouth. But again, I'm gonna turn this way so I don't do it into the mic, you know, breathe quickly into your nose.
Martin (03:08)
And out your mouth. It's like that. And so before we do the burst breathing, you're going to do about 10 seconds of that. You kind of count the breaths. That kind of throws it off because you're counting them. So then just do them. And I'll say, that's good. And then we'll reassess instead of trying to count them because it kind of takes it away when you're trying to do the burst breathing and trying to count the breaths. That kind of affects it. So here we go.
Martin (03:34)
First we'll do a assessment where you'll raise your arm to about right angle. Yep. Whichever one feels comfortable. Then you'll internally rotate it down. As far as you can go. Like all the way down. Yeah. And see what your how far you get when your muscles start tightening up and say, okay, that's enough rotation. Can you look and see? Where you are? Pretty good. Okay.
Jenn (04:03)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (04:04)
Mm-hmm.
Martin (04:04)
That's your baseline right now. And what we're gonna do is we're gonna do about 10 seconds of burst breathing, like I said. You ready? All
Jenn (04:10)
Mm-hmm.
Martin (04:11)
right, go for it.
Martin (04:13)
Okay, that's good. That's good. That's good. All right, now so I want you to test your arm again, internally rotate it, and see if you got any more range of motion. You did. So
Jenn (04:26)
Mm. Totally.
Martin (04:28)
yeah. So that's just a demonstration of how quickly oxygen one or nervous system regulation. This is just a regulatory tool. It just calms your nervous system down just a little bit.
Martin (04:42)
opens up your window of tolerance. But when your window of tolerance opens up, just to show you just in a matter of 10 seconds, 15 seconds, how it impacts our bodies and how quickly it impacts our bodies. Like and so I started in personal training and corrective exercise. And in order to get that range of motion, we would have probably had to do about three or four different stretches. And in order to get that increase in range of motion, that would have probably taken about 10 minutes where a simple breathing exercise
Martin (05:12)
Could affect
Jenn (05:12)
Wow.
Martin (05:13)
the yeah, that quickly. And it's because of the calming of the nervous system and not the actual range of motion of the muscle. And I think that's some things that we never really recognize in sports, in exercise, even in real life. We don't know how much our nervous system affects our capacity to do things. So, in a way, I increased your capacity.
Martin (05:37)
or your resilience or your ability to match trauma. So I opened up your window of tolerance with just one breathing exercise. And it's evident in the the assessment.
Jenn (05:48)
That's so fascinating. Wow. I have questions, but you wanna is there another one you wanna do?
Martin (05:54)
Let's do it later after after the tension gets in if we get into tension of the story, let's do another one and
Jenn (05:58)
Okay. I like that.
Martin (05:59)
then see if we can, you know, show how that how that works, even in session. And so kind of that's what we do in sessions. If I'm working with an athlete, I'm working with a coach, and things get heightened. And so we take certain things, like these exercises, and implement them in proper places that they can be utilized inside the world of sports.
Jenn (06:20)
So great. That's so great. Okay, cool. Well, my question would be before we kind of like fully dive into the conversation, is even, you know, part of my approach through yoga with trauma and breath has always been like be really cautious about potentially activating the sympathetic nervous system. You know, like maybe that's gonna activate a trigger.
Jenn (06:42)
But I think it's a little short sighted sometimes or I wonder about like other spaces where you know you're talking about kind of pushing that window of tolerance. And so do people
Martin (06:50)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jenn (06:53)
ever get activated when they do that kind of breathing or triggered?
Martin (06:57)
So different exercises affect people differently. And this is just it's like it's good to have a toolbox of them because everybody doesn't respond to them as well. So let's just for instance, if someone had a near-death experience from drowning, burst breathing would not be the best thing to do for them. You understand? And so
Martin (07:24)
Because they have a trauma trauma with drowning, even if that happened when they was a baby, like that would trigger a survival response, which would completely collapse the window of tolerance. Right. And so, also, same example, that's probably not the best thing to do when a and a player comes in from a timeout because they're already winded, so they'll have to use a different tool.
Martin (07:48)
that that would calm them down. I like to do things that will happen in sixty seconds or less 'cause that's about the length of a timeout that a coach gets, that a player gets, if they are gonna go back into into action. And so I think it's the constraints of sports that allows for really, really awesome things to happen. This is why we refer to sports is
Martin (08:11)
analogies for success, adversity, overcoming adversity, and all kinds of things that sports kind of represents is why we so, you know, into it when we get into it, even a casual fan can watch a sports game and be fully engaged in it if there's enough tension, if there's enough competition, even on sports that you not know how to be a fan of. And so in those constraints of sports is like how can you because that timeout is gonna happen, that 60 seconds is going to elapse whether you
Martin (08:41)
open your window of tolerance or you completely shut down. And that could be the difference between a championship, a win or a loss, a contract. And those things are win in the back of these athletes and coaches' heads. And so window of tolerance collapses. And that's the that's really the whole thing is just trying to open up the window of tolerance so that they can focus on the task at hand. And then the other parts is the in between games. How do you
Martin (09:11)
build and prepare for the next game, building the nervous system. And so that's where things like yoga, things that take longer than what you have in an actual competition. So
Jenn (09:21)
Mm. Mm-hmm. So
Jenn (09:23)
when would you use the breath that you did just now? Is it like getting people warmed up, pe getting people ready to
Martin (09:29)
Yeah.
Martin (09:29)
This is a really good one to to to get started in, just to kind of loosen the body. in in ways for me is like, you know, if you're working out, if you do let's say we're doing three sets of ten push ups, so to speak, in between sets is time. And so you they have a
Martin (09:48)
phenomen not phenomenon, but like basically a superset philosophy. Like if I'm doing push ups when I do my push ups and if I'm doing a superset, I could go do maybe some tricep dips in between there before I do the push ups or do a different body and it has an effect on the body because you're not resting, you're just putting more stress on a different part of the body. And the way I look at it is like if you add some of these exercises in between those sets where you're building a nervous system.
Martin (10:16)
while you're building another muscle, that's where
Jenn (10:18)
huh.
Martin (10:19)
you can use those inside spaces. So in a that's a small context from a like an individual from a team perspective, it's like, how can we incorporate this into warm ups? Whether it's a breathing exercise or somatic exercise or a visualization exercise, how can we incorporate that into something that we're already doing and you already have pretty much confined time to do them in.
Martin (10:45)
That's a good time to practice doing it in 60 seconds. So when you get to
Jenn (10:49)
Okay.
Martin (10:50)
game time, you try to overpractice. If you got two or three practices before the next game, then you've given yourself 30 reps of trying to do it in a 60 second time frame of rest in workouts or warm up or a rest break during a practice.
Jenn (11:08)
What stands out about how you're talking about this is weaving it into the fabric of like the the entire game or practice or workout. So rather than like, okay, I do this thing over here for my nervous system regulation and then I do this thing over here for training my body, it's like that probably is so powerful of a way to do the work.
Martin (11:28)
Yeah, and I think it's realistic to you kind of gotta meet athletes where they are. You know what I mean? Like my my thing is like help them out with the neuroscience and the nervous system regulation without them having to become neuroscientists or nervous system practitioners. It's like how can they take the wisdom and the knowledge of what it is, apply it to what they are doing, and it helps them with what they're trying to do. N none of the athletes are really trying to become in the moment that they're
Martin (11:56)
what I do. Now, I've had an athlete that I've coached and trained since she was like 14 years old. She went into psychology and she's she's in freshman and high high school. I mean college right now. And her major is psychology because of as I train her, I implement these things. And so I'm really focused on the brain. I really focus on the psychology. And, you know, she had two devastating injuries in high school and still was able to go to college on scholarship. And she made the all freshman team.
Martin (12:26)
after all of that adversity. So I think the it's more so like how can you build the body in order to withstand the setbacks and the inevitable negative things that are going to happen in sports. And so like just preparing for them, you know.
Jenn (12:43)
That's so cool. Yeah, no, that that's I'd love to just back up a little bit and hear more and for you to share with everyone around like how you got into the neurosequential model, how you got into this work and kind of your story, because I think that's really powerful.
Martin (12:59)
Yeah, so the neurosequential model came about for me. my f my therapist introduced me to a book by Dr. Bruce Perry, the boy that was raised as a dog. And I was doing therapy after an ACL injury one day. No, no, no, no, no. I found out my wife was pregnant with my son one day, and two days later I tore my ACL. So that scenario of having a torn ACL.
Martin (13:23)
And a baby on the way made me really sit back and like I need to do some self-reflection. How am I gonna show up as a father? I no longer have the athlete identity because I can't move my leg right now. And you know, so I leaned in on taking that time to learn. You know what I mean? Learn about myself, about my past.
Martin (13:44)
I was well, I was familiar with transgenerational trauma as a concept. And it's just like, okay, I don't to pass things that are unknowingly on to my son. So that's where I started. And the thing about the neurosequential model that caught me, that just really, really caught it as soon as I got into it was I already was working in corrective exercise, which was basically helping athletes return from injury or
Martin (14:11)
balance imbalances caused by injuries through exercise. And that's through NASM, the National Academy of Sports Medicine. They have a what's called a OPT model. And I forget what OPT means right now, but I haven't done personal training. It's basically, but their model, they have a continuum for corrective things that when you're correcting injuries and it's inhibit
Martin (14:39)
is inhibit, lengthen, isolate, integrate. And that's their continuum for helping an athlete or anybody that has an injury balance it out. So an injury will cause an imbalance. I'm gonna go through that. The injury is gonna cause an imbalance. If you have every one of your movements or joint movements has a muscle that pulls.
Martin (15:07)
And the opposite relaxes. So I'll use my arm as an example. So the tricep is pulling, the bicep is relaxing. When I do this, the bicep is pulling, the tricep is relaxing. If there's a certain type of injury, the range of motion will be affected on one side or the other. So if it makes my bicep become overactive, it will in turn make my tricep become underactive. The bicep will take over this movement. Right. And so in order to balance that out, the
Martin (15:37)
Overactive bicep needs to be relaxed. And because I'm doing this movement all the time and the bicep is taking it over, the tricep doesn't get any work. So this one hypertrophies
Jenn (15:45)
Mm-hmm.
Martin (15:46)
gets stronger. This one atrophies gets weaker. And thus the imbalance. Okay, you need to correct that imbalance. You do it through inhibit. You calm this one down. You stop it from being so overactive. You lengthen it so it has a little bit more range of motion.
Martin (16:04)
Then you isolate the one on the back so this one doesn't take over the movement. And
Jenn (16:09)
Mm-hmm.
Martin (16:09)
you strengthen that one through that. And then you integrate them both so you can get back to the movement that they're supposed to be because they're a symbiotic relationship. And so that's the goal of corrective exercise. Okay. I saw so many similarities in the neurosequential model and that particular OPT model.
Martin (16:27)
So when I saw it, I was like, wait a minute, you mean to tell me that you can use this continuum with traumas to the brain, not like necessarily like TBI, like traumatic brain injury, a physical injury, but we're talking about processing traumas. Cause what do traumas cause? They cause an overactive response in some kind of way. And then that overactive response never allows you to really hone in on another response because that becomes a default response to the stimulus. And then
Martin (16:53)
It's like, okay, okay, now that I'm noticing that, once that's in my awareness, and how can I do something for this overactive response and strengthen another response? And then how can I do that practice without the trigger that's causing the response? So now I'm strengthening the part that doesn't really get practiced because this is the overactive response. Okay. Then you integrate it and you find ways to put it together to where like you don't have to
Martin (17:21)
Eliminate something for something to be able to come forward. So you kind of like balance it out. And that's the intellectual concept that got me into the neurosequential model. And I have been on it ever since. And yeah. So that and but I also during all of that I'm personal training and I'm coaching you sports. And so when I learn something, you know, you share it with the kids, but
Martin (17:46)
They won't get that explanation that I just gave you. And I hope your listeners get it. But I have to do other things for, you know, depending on the age group that I'm working with. I work with everything from kindergarten to college. So the language has to change, the examples have to change, the you know, explanations have to change, but you still wanna get the point across. And so I find really cool ways to do so.
Jenn (18:10)
I can only imagine. Can you share some of those? Like if you were talking to, you know, first grader, second grader or elementary, like how how would you frame it and and what what do you feel like is important for them to know and what actually is sort of irrelevant maybe for them?
Martin (18:24)
Yeah yeah. most of it is irrelevant to them. Mo that the vast majority of it. Like the explanation I just gave to you, that's not what we're gonna we're not gonna get a desired result from from kids. So like if I'm dealing with a a group of kindergartners and a lot of times I'm saying groups, individually it's whatever the individual needs, right? Like it's kinda case by case basis, you don't really know
Martin (18:49)
Until you deal with the individual. But from a more broad perspective, like dealing with kids, I do like what I love to call call and responses. I do those with kids all the time. It's just what are you saying? And a lot of times I like this to be built in identity versus like a necessary thing that you do. And then we'll do something like So what I'll say to a kid is like, or this will be the chant, like who's strong? And they'll respond, I'm strong.
Martin (19:17)
They'll do their arms up like this and all of that, right? So who's strong? I'm strong. And like and then I'll ask, are you strong? And then I say too strong. So they'll do who's strong, they say, I'm strong, and who's strong, too strong, like that. Okay. They
Jenn (19:34)
Mm-hmm.
Martin (19:34)
love that because they're, you know, they have a movement with it. I'm I'm attaching a movement with the word and every time they do it, like they start doing that movement. So that starts to build a neural pathway.
Martin (19:47)
In that space and it's call and response. So every time I do it, they'll do it. And then strong is a cool word, but then how do I calm them? So I'll do something like this. I'll have them cross their arms and I'll have them tap on both shoulders like this and I'll say, Who's calm? And they'll say, I'm calm. And while they're doing that, so like you got a movement with an identity. So you give them an exercise with an identity, and you know, they like to do that. And when you
Martin (20:14)
With a group of kids, kids really want to make you proud. They really, really want to make you proud. They don't want to get in trouble either. They do, because life, right? They're five
Jenn (20:28)
Yep.
Martin (20:28)
year olds, six year olds, like they do, but they don't want to. They don't really, really want to. So when you can give them something that they can be praised for, admired for, recognized for, affirmed, then
Martin (20:44)
You can start building those pathways through that. Right. And then of course you gotta model behaviors as well. And again, it's like, you know, I tell a kid if we're working on a breathing exercise, I didn't tell you, but if I tell a kid burst breathing, we're talking about smell the flowers, blow out the candles. You
Jenn (21:01)
Mm-hmm.
Martin (21:02)
know what I mean? So like it's the cues that you would give them. It's like smell the flower, blow out the candle, or sniff the flower, blow out the candle. Something that's
Martin (21:11)
better for them. And it also works in in groups with with adults if you if it's groups. You know what I mean? Like you have to talk to a group differently than you have to talk to one or two people.
Jenn (21:21)
That makes so much sense. And I think I think kids in general, right, they're used to they're used to adults saying a lot of things to them that they tune out. So probably the quicker that you can get to doing and
Martin (21:32)
Yes.
Jenn (21:32)
experiencing
Martin (21:34)
Yes. And then what I learned from Dr. Perry is how rewarding regulation is for a kid that's dysregulated. And so
Jenn (21:44)
Mm.
Martin (21:45)
if you can help them get to a point of regulation after being dysregulated and they start to associate you with their regulation, they don't want to be dysregulated either and they don't want to feel like they're out of control of their regulation. And so when you start to represent a
Martin (21:59)
connection to regulation for them, that starts to create like a dopamine effect to wanting to regulate more. To wanting
Martin (22:09)
to regulate more. Also wanting to connect more. So they'll start looking at you for connection and regulation. And so
Martin (22:16)
I like to say like they're borrowing my calm or I'm borrowing their calm. And because there's an emotional contagion phenomenon that goes on. And the adult or the caretaker usually has more power in the calming parts of that or in the dysregulating parts too. Cause you say like a dysregulated adult cannot regulate a dysregulated child. So the adult has to regulate.
Martin (22:43)
However, a dysregulated child can absolutely dysregulate a regulated adult. So you kind of got two things
Jenn (22:50)
Yeah, yeah.
Martin (22:51)
working against you as the adult.
Jenn (22:53)
But
Jenn (22:53)
you're but it's so I mean, you know, what you talk about with the power piece is huge, right? Like that,
Martin (22:58)
Assim.
Jenn (23:00)
I think sometimes we can go in with kids and even I think about this as a parent, you know, and you can see like my kids really dysregulated and overwhelmed. And it's so important to remember the power that we do have, but also taking that time to pause, regulate or figure or or do the regulation with them, the co-regulation. So I guess I wonder
Jenn (23:20)
for you, like how do you prepare when you go into these environments or like, you know, are there are there things that you do to kind of bring yourself into a place of like grounded regulation?
Martin (23:31)
the I think the best preparation is to be prepared, right? Like the very first thing is like if I'm not frazzled, I'm not not there late, if I got all my ducks in a row and things like that, like some of the technical difficulties that I just experienced on here. Like I like to not have those things if I'm about to deal with like forty five kids or, you know, twenty kids, maybe even five. I like to be early enough to kind of
Martin (24:00)
at least eliminate some anxiety that you can just not have to deal with, right? Also remaining flexible, knowing that you can plan for all perfection and it just doesn't happen. I did something with my son's school a couple weeks ago and it was not what I thought going in at all. And I you had to make some adjustments. And this is the beauty of the work though.
Martin (24:26)
Is the adjustments give you a solution that you never would have you never would have looked for the solution if you didn't have the problem that presented itself. And it was beautiful for me because I was like, I got this ideas, I can bring this to the kids. And the kids wasn't ready for what I was gonna bring them. Like I had the slides ready. They wasn't supposed to just read slides, but I had videos and all of that. And I had to throw the whole playbook in the trash because these kids need something else.
Martin (24:55)
And so it made me scale back and I did something completely different. And I felt like that's what they needed. And I had three sessions with them, thank goodness, because I was able to really establish something going forward because they needed more than what I thought. And again, it's like this is where the neurosequential model comes in. It's like I wanted to meet them at their cortex, but they wasn't at the cortex. So you had to regulate with them first. I had to, you know, there was there was a familiarizing process.
Martin (25:23)
with them before I can get to any of the things that are the cool things that the that the principal's like, I my kids would love that. And I'm like, I know, I think they would too. And I'm like, they're not ready for it yet. We gotta scale it back and do something
Martin (25:38)
more relatable and then introduce something that's new to them. and so yeah, I yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Jenn (25:43)
You're talking about safety, really, like establishing safety with you and familiarity. Mm-hmm.
Martin (25:48)
And
Martin (25:49)
Yeah, and that's good. It because I think sometimes us as adults, we had these these things already planned out in our heads because we're trying to be a responsible adults and we gotta be on time and we gotta do certain things. And sometimes, you know, the moment actually calls for a little more patience than more rushing. You know what I mean? Or it calls for audible, you know what I mean? Like the play we called in the huddle is not what we need to do once we get to the line. That's okay. Have some
Martin (26:18)
And that's why the toolbox works, right? Like that's why it's like, you know what, I got something for these kids that they need rather than what I thought that they would need when I was going in. And so, yeah, that's kind of being a coach. The game plan, sometimes you gotta throw it out as soon as you start the game. It's just you know. I think it's life too. Yeah.
Jenn (26:34)
It's it's still relatable. Yeah.
Martin (26:37)
Yeah.
Jenn (26:39)
I think so much
Jenn (26:39)
about how like as a therapist, a lot of times people come in and they're like, I want to work on this and I wanna do this and I wanna do this. And if we haven't spent time together, we haven't sp met one another, they maybe haven't even if they haven't done a lot of work on themselves or in the way that I might invite that work, usually the thing we end up working is different than what they thought they wanted to work on. You know, it's like usually we have to pivot and it takes time because
Jenn (27:04)
I don't know them and they don't know me. And so we're gonna co create something together, but how do we do that if we don't know each other and we haven't like explored together?
Martin (27:13)
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I I think this is the part of the stigma with the whole therapy thing. Is it seems like taking your car to the shop and I'm here to get something fixed. You know what I mean? And I don't know what that rumbling sound is and I don't know what this is. So I'm going to the auto mechanic for them to tell me what that is that's rumbling or causing my car not to drive how I wanted it to drive. And
Martin (27:42)
That's the analogy for I think how people approach therapy, right? Like it's like, what am I here to fix? And so when you get there and there's a full diagnostic, it's like your your your your car mechanic
Jenn (27:54)
No. Yeah.
Martin (27:55)
could be like, yo, I know you heard that, but these things over here are what's causing that sound, right? And that requires again, like like you said, I don't wanna too much put us in a mechanical space, but
Martin (28:11)
Everything that we think we are dealing with might not be exactly what it is. So when you walk to an expert
Martin (28:17)
You you know, it just opens it up. Nothing that I thought I was going into therapy for. I had no idea I would end up with like Dr. Bruce Perry. I would sometimes I tell the story about how bad it was that the introduction was even to Dr. Perry's work because it wasn't a favorable conversation for me. It was like I learned about disassociation very, very late in this whole scenario. I'm like, you what disassociation is? Like you're disassociate. And I'm like, what?
Martin (28:46)
You know what I mean? And so like, okay, that's what disassociation is. And so, you know, now I'm catching myself, okay, I'm disassociating. It's not like I'm always daydreaming, but there's so many ways to disassociate. And so now I'm starting to recognize them. And so when the book was introduced to me, it wasn't just like, hey, you should read this book. It was
Martin (29:11)
I'm reading a book that reminds me of you. I'm like, okay. Well, what's the name of the book? And it's the boy that was raised as a dog. Really? What are you trying to say about me? Like, you saying I was raised as a dog? You saying I'm you, you know what I mean? Like the title of the book.
Jenn (29:27)
A lot. Yeah.
Martin (29:29)
like, wait a minute. And she's like, no, this doctor really, really knows about childhood trauma, how to process it, how to get through it. And I'm like, okay, well, what is his name?
Martin (29:38)
And I I I watched a YouTube video on Dr. Perry that day, and I've been a fan ever since I understood what was going on, but the initial thing caused the shutdown, the safety that we're talking about, right? Like it's like, I'm just not getting to know you. Like, what do you mean this book reminds me? You know what I mean? And so, like, those are those questions. And it was as crazy of a introduction as it was for me. It was
Martin (30:05)
Absolutely, this is a direction you probably need to look at and this is why this reminded her of me. However, the title didn't help, you know, you know what I'm saying? In terms of what
Jenn (30:16)
It's a tough one. Yeah.
Martin (30:18)
what we're what we're looking at because I feel judged now. You know what I mean? I feel all the other things. Like, what are you saying? And you know, I didn't make that big of a deal. The energy shifted. Everybody felt that energy shift, but at the same time, like I went and did my homework and
Martin (30:35)
We had something to talk about every single time we talked now. Cause who who would have thought like a therapy session would turn into, you know, I worked with Dr. Perry. I've done some cool things with Dr. Perry that you just don't think a therapy session lead to a career change. I didn't think that would, you know, happen. So that's cool. And I wouldn't even say career change. It changed me inside of things that I was doing. And so
Jenn (30:58)
Mm.
Martin (30:59)
that kind of and you know.
Martin (31:02)
It helped me so I become this advocate for it, almost an evangelist for it, because like I wish I had it when I was their age. So hey, look, you know what I'm saying? Like this is what you can do now based on all the adversities that you're facing. And these are tools that you can use that, you know.
Martin (31:22)
Yeah, it it could prevent a lot of the destructive things that we tend to do when we don't know healthier ways to cope with, you know, traumas or, you know, hardships, adversities, setbacks, you know, things that cause us to grieve, whatever those things may be. just having tools to get through it and understanding what's healthy for you, like
Jenn (31:45)
Mm.
Martin (31:46)
relationship wise,
Martin (31:49)
Knowing that like everybody's around is not necessarily the healthiest, the the conversations that you have and like it's so many different things that when you become aware you you just make different decisions and you practice different practices. Yeah.
Jenn (32:08)
So powerful. I'm wondering too, I'm thinking like, you know, for some of our listeners that may not be familiar with the neurosequential model. I know we've been talking about it or a little bit, you know, dabbling in it, but could you give an overview of it for folks? Is that I know it's
Martin (32:22)
Yeah,
Martin (32:23)
yeah, yeah. Neurosequential model. I mean all right, so it's a methodology of how the brain actually works. So I got a dope acronym for it. It's actually dope. That's what the dope Coach Academy and all of it comes from. It's the brain essentially has about well, it has way more than this, but we're gonna like simplify it. It develops, organizes, processes.
Martin (32:49)
And engages or it should be engaged with in a sequential manner. So when you're born, your brain develops in sequence. And certain parts of the brain develops before other parts. So your brain stem, the fight, flight, freeze, the stress response system, that is the n first thing that develops. It's also the first thing that perceives threat. It reads the room. It does all of those things. But that part of the brain.
Martin (33:15)
It's not the whole part of the brain. So after that, you got the midbrain or the diencephalon, and then you have the limbic system, which is the more emotional aspects of things. I would say the midbrain is like the functional things, things that are that make us alive, but not necessarily human, right? The limbic system, you know, animals have that as well. But then we get into the most human part of the brain, which is the prefrontal cortex, where we process thoughts. thoughts
Martin (33:44)
plans, all kinds of things that we can compute, the math, the all of the things, right? Then the limbic system is more the emotional, the attachment, the bonding and all of that. So the sequence, the neurosequential is brain order in a sense. And so how we develop, how it organizes, those kind of go together. Because organization is really important. Organization comes from essentially the root word is organ.
Martin (34:13)
All of your organs are in place. They are in place. They are in position. They have a position before they have a process. If, you know, your stomach was on your shoulder, you got a problem. Like they they have a place that they should be. You know what I mean? So like that's why organization is so important, because if it doesn't organize properly, then you have issues down the line. Then the way it processes. So the organs have their place, the positions, and then they have their jobs, how they process things in the body.
Martin (34:42)
Or how they process things in the brain. And then how do we engage? That's the like social aspect of the development. And we're such social creatures immediately. Like, no, you know, babies, humans are like the most dependent infants ever. You know, dogs even walking within a couple of days, or, you know, sometimes immediately a horse will be born and they immediately walk in, feeding themselves. Yeah, they'll nurse a little bit, but they'll eat some grass, right? Like,
Martin (35:10)
Elephants, they're walking, giraffes, they wobbly, but they're walking. Humans are inherently dependent on other people for survival.
Jenn (35:18)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Martin (35:20)
And so that engagement piece or the attachment piece is really, really important, especially in the developmental stages of the brain. Like so many things are developing. It especially from utero to infancy. Like it's like really, really, really, really deeply in the first sixty days and then
Martin (35:40)
It's not as much after the first 60 days, but still significantly more than it will be for the rest of the life from 60 days to three years. So that development is a huge piece because the element of development is time.
Jenn (35:55)
Mm.
Martin (35:55)
Okay. So these things happen over time. And in some parts of this timeline of development, if there are traumas, if there are extreme stressors or
Martin (36:07)
prolonged stressors, it affects the development and it affects the organization, which affects the processing, which affects how we engage and
Jenn (36:18)
Mm.
Martin (36:18)
how we need to engage with someone that may have a history of adversity. And so if you can understand, like so to speak, the rules of engagement, which are, you know, under the neural sequential model is regulate, relate, reason. You want to get people out of their brainstem.
Martin (36:36)
Up into at least their limbic system and their cortex to be able to process. And that's also that window of tolerance that I'm looking at because you know the brainstem, it don't have no tolerance. It is reacting and it's trying to survive, even if it doesn't process what's going on completely. It doesn't need all the answers. It don't even ask the prefrontal cortex to process it. It reacts before you think. So those are the
Martin (37:07)
I don't know. That I don't think that was the best explanation for everybody. I hope it was. Okay. Okay.
Jenn (37:11)
That's great. No, I'm right there with you. It's great. Yeah.
Jenn (37:13)
I mean, I know I know it's hard to to be like, in five minutes, tell me about this really deep and profound thing. And
Martin (37:17)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jenn (37:19)
you know, folks can who aren't familiar with it certainly can look into it. But I just to me what's so exciting about your work is the way that you have adapted it to bring it into the lives of people who need it, but also might not typically access some kind of
Jenn (37:36)
Trauma care or some trauma informed care, but in a in a p in a way that doesn't pathologize it or turn it into an issue. It's sort of like, yeah, okay, kid the kids you're coaching or things that you're doing, plenty of those kids have probably experienced trauma because we know the prevalence just in general. And now they get to access these tools that otherwise might not be available, but without the like stigma of now we're doing trauma care.
Jenn (38:02)
I'm assuming. I mean I guess that's also kind of a question, is like, ha do you talk about trauma?
Martin (38:07)
Sometimes I I I prefer to discuss adversity as if we're talking about a word. I definitely talk about trauma is in is in mostly speeches. if it comes up or if things come up, I just maybe don't I don't use the word, but adversity is something that so I I I pretty much identify as an alchemist. Like I feel
Jenn (38:28)
Mm-hmm.
Martin (38:28)
like I can turn lead to gold. And so
Martin (38:34)
If it if it's bad, the worse it is, the more gold I have once I'm able to convert it. So I have a mindset on that. And so I project that onto people in a way. So I'm like,
Jenn (38:47)
Mm-hmm.
Martin (38:48)
hey, look, this is bad. We can't do anything about the thing that's already happened that's bad. But how can we get from here to there? And then I'll do something like say, like, hey, you ever used the GPS before? Of course they're gonna say yes, right.
Martin (39:02)
And then I'm like, okay, well, put a destination in the GPS. No matter when you put a destination in the GPS, it's gonna tell you how to get there from where you currently are. And it's not gonna ask you where you've been. Only reason I'm asking you where you've been is I care, I need context. But a GPS doesn't. So you can always get from where you are to where you want to be as long as you you your heart still beating, you still got breath to breathe, you still got your mobility. And even if you don't have mobility, I work with kids who've lost arms and legs and all of those things. So
Martin (39:31)
Like you can do it. Like you can literally transmute a lot of things. And so if you decide if that's something that you know you want to do and you don't want to allow the adversity to become the end of the story, you know what I mean? Like if you if it could become the part of the story that makes this a really good movie, let's do that, right? You know what I mean? And I I I look at it like that. So like
Martin (40:02)
I don't necessarily talk about trauma, but I've always been a person that people share stuff with that why do they tell me that? You know what I mean? Like
Jenn (40:12)
I do.
Martin (40:13)
We was we're in the gym. You know what I mean? Like how did I end up with that story? But it is what it is. And so I I tend to hear stories and I process them through this. Like I wonder how that can turn into something that benefits you versus it being something that you carry around as something that's preventing you from doing what you want to do. And I'm saying it as a
Martin (40:41)
explanation, but I have done it through my whole life. So I say a ACL injury and here I am on some neurosequential model type stuff. And who thinks that that would be the term, but it's what is this trying to teach me? Because it's clearly the lessons up until now have been
Martin (41:01)
They they I've gotten them how I've gotten them. And now it's taken all of those things away from me. Like I don't have I I would say maybe playing basketball or being in sports was a very great way for me to disassociate. Because if I could go play basketball, I can go do certain things, I could get away from it for a few hours. And it's like this extreme dopamine effect. You got the exercise, you got the
Martin (41:28)
camaraderie of the people that you playing with. You got the pattern repetitive rhythmic movement. don't let me win a bunch of games or that really be doing good. You got all the praise and accolades of all the all the things that could happen. And this could just be a pickup game. So if that's what I could always default to, there were let let's say that was the overactive part. And so when that was eliminated,
Jenn (41:50)
Mm.
Martin (41:51)
once that was inhibited, then I got a chance to develop some of these other things. And so
Martin (41:56)
I never thought about it quite like that, but that is kinda how I was able to balance it out in a way. And and I get to talk about it. So I I
Martin (42:07)
I do it, I live it, and then I talk about it and I try to demonstrate it. I really, really wanna embody it more so than, you know, just speak about it. Because I, you know, I also got my qualms with people that know how to turn this terminology into attention and it
Jenn (42:28)
Yes.
Martin (42:29)
doesn't necessarily go beyond it and
Martin (42:32)
You know, so I'm one of those type of people that I rather promote what I love than bash what I hate. I don't give it a lot of airtime and when it does make me feel some type of way I double down on what it is that I believe in.
Jenn (42:46)
Mm-hmm. There's so much in there. It's so well, and and I feel that. I'm sure that everyone that's gonna be watching this feels that would feel that too, is that authenticity around trying to live into what you believe and what you talk about. I think so much of how we teach is by all of those mirror neurons, being together, leading by example, but even just energetically, stuff that is hard to even talk about when you're with someone
Martin (43:10)
Yeah.
Jenn (43:11)
who is that way, that
Jenn (43:14)
can help you to become that way, you know, regulated to your point or willing to integrate. You know, it's one thing I think when we talk about like, I think about some approaches to trauma around like, let's focus on the present and and not talk about the past. This is different what you're saying in my mind. It's like the past happened, there was an impact, like and and now what? Like where are we going now?
Jenn (43:39)
I think our s the story is important, but we can get so bogged down in the story or the retelling, or maybe if I tell the story again and again or to the right person it will feel better. It that's usually not true, right? It's sort of like that happened, or these things happen, and now what do I get to do about it? Or what can I do with it, you know?
Martin (44:00)
I'm truly believe people are addicted to trauma. Like I feel like it's a part of I I think it uses a mechanism that addictions use in terms of like the story.
Jenn (44:13)
Yes. Yes.
Martin (44:13)
so, you know, because it creates those chemical reactions in the body when you get to tell that story. You know what I mean? And I I'm talking about I'm from a perspective of the story that was probably the most devastating to me, I didn't tell for
Martin (44:28)
years ever. Like it wouldn't come out of my mouth. And so when I started telling the story, I find myself telling it to many people and not to get caught up in the like going from like an extreme, like not talking about it to talking about it too much, but also what that story does to me or for me, depending on when I'm telling it. And so
Jenn (44:55)
No.
Martin (44:56)
I would say, even if I never spoke that story out loud, I see that story play out rather frequently. And this is a childhood trauma scenario. I don't know how much time we got, but essentially my neighbor passed away at my house of a heart attack. He was 33 years old. I was 14. I saw the whole thing. Like we went from playing basketball to an ambulance and a CPR, and he didn't make it.
Martin (45:24)
so that is a very vivid visual story for me. And I didn't share it for 14, 15 years. It just I remained mute on it. People I grew up with had never understood that that happened. And so when I tell it.
Martin (45:45)
It's must be purposeful for me. And when I started telling it, this was when I first started working in the gym. And I realized the reason I was telling it to the people in the gym, because I didn't I internally I felt like I was saving people from heart attacks. So I would keep them trying to come to the gym. I was really good at getting people to join the gym because in my 14-year-old mind, I attributed his death to being out of shape.
Martin (46:11)
You know what I mean? We was playing basketball. He wasn't really a basketball player. He came out and played and he wasn't in shape to do it and his overload. That's in my mind. That's what happened.
Martin (46:22)
So that story, even if it wasn't completely accurate, that was in my brain, and I never
Jenn (46:27)
Yes.
Martin (46:27)
shared it. I talked to his to his his brother the last last year on the 25th anniversary of it, and there's certain parts of the story that I had completely right. Like my memory was absolutely on, and there was other parts that I I didn't know because I didn't know him. I met him the day literally he came to my house. That was my first time meeting him, and he passed.
Martin (46:50)
So there's some type of tie there to where I wasn't able to really process it. And, you know, nobody thinks about that when you're 14 years old. Like that wasn't a thought. So why I'm into trauma-informed attachment theory, why I focus on and working with schools is because I don't think there was any adults that had any information on
Jenn (47:14)
Mm-hmm.
Martin (47:16)
what I possibly could have gone through. And so I basically
Martin (47:19)
internalized it and dealt with it all myself. And I didn't do a very good job at it as far as being a student or being like all the things that I was supposed to be because I didn't have any support in that regard. When my parents was there, like everything was there, but there was no I didn't never thought about therapy. I never thought about trauma. I never thought about PTSD. I never thought about any of those things till I was an adult and I retroactively went back and I'm like, that's what I was dealing with. You know what I mean? And
Martin (47:49)
We're talking 20 years later, or maybe 15, before I I even could even recognize that that story that I wasn't telling was quietly directing or dictating certain behaviors or certain things in my life that I didn't know about. And that's what I mean. Like that, what is that sound? You know what I mean? Like I'm going to find out like what it is that's causing this vehicle not to perform in the way that it's designed to.
Martin (48:17)
form, not to, you know, it's not doing what I thought it would do. And I felt that way about myself. I felt that way about,
Jenn (48:24)
Yeah.
Martin (48:24)
you know, like words that weren't a part of my vocabulary. Like what is self-sabotage? What is, you know, all of these things where I yeah, I had to I dealt with a lot of different things in that context of all the things that happened, but I only processed on myself. So as now like I'm an advocate for therapy, I'm an advocate for child therapy, I'm an advocate for
Martin (48:46)
you know, parents having support so they aren't so overwhelmed with the kids. I'm an advocate for, you know, all the things because if I'd had those things, I felt like I would have at least fared better. However, I love the entire story because when I came back to it, I and I built very resilient mechanisms. Some of them were destructive, but other ones were not.
Martin (49:14)
You know what I mean? Like I developed the that Alchemist Mindset was before I met Dr. Peary. Like I I have another book out there, by Malcolm Gladwell called David and Goliath. And this was before
Jenn (49:24)
Mm-hmm.
Martin (49:24)
I learned the neuroscience. You know what I'm saying? And it's just, you know, how can you turn an adversity into something that works for you? And so like
Martin (49:35)
It the mindset preceded the neuroscience, I feel like. You know
Jenn (49:39)
This is it.
Martin (49:40)
what I mean? And so the neuroscience is like, I got it. Like I got scientific proof that my thought process is working. And I also have visual proof. I have like proof of my life and the people that are around me. And I I get proof from my clients and proof from, you know, the people that you want to help. And I feel like I I do a good job of helping people. Like
Martin (50:02)
They they say it too. It's not like me, but like I I
Jenn (50:04)
Yeah, I know.
Martin (50:06)
I and that's the goal, like to get get to the depths. I think sometimes we could just get caught up with life and never never just turn the music up sometimes and we don't hear the sound that's clicking. You know what I mean? And so it's like, okay,
Jenn (50:18)
Mm.
Martin (50:20)
so then we don't have to address it. And so until something becomes catastrophic. Right. And I think that's that's what we get to do.
Martin (50:30)
That's the work that I get to do. And I get to do it because sports is a such a somatic release. And so like if I could just add some a little bit of information and a few tools that would enhance that scenario, then you know, I think we we we we give people a better chance to build some things inside their bodies and inside their minds because sports is a short lived thing. Like most people don't play after, you know, early twenties, early thirties.
Martin (50:59)
You got people like LeBron's early 40s, but he's like an anomaly, right? So everybody else is
Jenn (51:03)
Not hold.
Martin (51:04)
done, right? Nobody else that came in the league with LeBron is still there. He's the only one. So the vast majority of people are done with sports very early in life. So it's a training ground for me. Like it was for me. I didn't play any I played in college, but beyond that, 22 years old, I'm old, it's done. So after that it was just recreational. And so how can we take that short window of time again to
Martin (51:27)
time constraints that we have and build what we need to in those short time constraints. If we're talking about inside of an exercise set is one thing, or inside just the window of how long you get a chance to be an athlete before you move on into the next thing. But in that meantime, we built something that can carry on into the next thing.
Jenn (51:48)
Just amazing. I I can't wait for to learn more from you. And I imagine a lot of our listeners will want to as well. Is there, you know, I know we'll share in the program notes, but I'm assuming
Martin (51:58)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (51:59)
you're you are offering trainings to other providers and trainers and coaches and things like
Martin (52:03)
Yeah.
Jenn (52:04)
this. Cause like this is such a it's such a beautiful integration, I think, of
Martin (52:09)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (52:10)
real life practice, of insight and and trauma care and
Jenn (52:16)
Neuroscience. It's incredible.
Martin (52:18)
Yeah, and I I and I think the connection that we had with with the yoga piece is that's why I looked at it because I I was doing sports way before I tried yoga. And I definitely see yoga as being a piece, but I see the the the connection between the brain and the body, the mental health and the physical health. And so yes, we can do
Martin (52:46)
I I work with I work with coaches and this could be sports coaches, this could be other coaches that help like life coaches or and I help them understand how to relax or calm down the nervous systems of their clients. in sometimes not as intense setting as sports, but emotions can be very intense. Just getting people back into a
Martin (53:12)
regulated space to have a conversation. especially about things that might trigger them into a space of disassociation, maybe, or arousal and anger and you know, being able to use the tools to get them to a point where you can take them where they need to go. And so yeah, people care you could reach out to me on LinkedIn. I didn't give you the LinkedIn social, but I will. But
Martin (53:37)
That's how you can reach out to me if you want to work with me individually. Other than that, you probably catch me on somebody's speaking stage at a conference. And I'm gonna be much better at putting out content in the second half of 2026 after we finish the whole FIFA World Cup scenario. I actually am
Jenn (53:53)
Yeah.
Martin (53:54)
gonna be doing some World Cup content though. But there'll be a lot of instances where I can show.
Martin (54:03)
in real time with international audience with sports because sports always gives you content. You always get a get a get somebody disregulated and what happens when the the window of tolerance closes. And then I can teach the science with that. But yeah.
Jenn (54:22)
We'll keep our eyes open then. We'll keep watching to see what's next. Thank you so much for joining me and I look forward to seeing what what comes next for you.
Martin (54:31)
Thank you so much.
