Speaker 1 0:00
Hey,
Jenn 0:10
welcome to on trauma and power. I'm your host. Jen Turner, co founder and director of the Center for trauma and embodiment. I'm so glad you're here with us. Each episode, I sit down with powerful leaders, educators and survivors from around the world. Join me for these empowering conversations rooted in whole person, embodied experiences where trauma meets power and healing takes shape. Let's dive in. Hi Corey, thanks so much for joining me. Thank you for having me excited to be here. I'm so excited for you to share your voice, your knowledge experience with our community. So I'll just introduce read a little bit about kind of you to the community, and then hand things over to you so you can lead us through an embodiment practice, which I'm really excited to do. So Cory Andreas is an lcswc is a late, diagnosed autistic therapist specializing in neurodivergent, affirming care for high masking autistic adults with over two decades in education and clinical practice, she supports individuals, couples and families through assessments, therapy and advocacy. She's also the founder of unplugged and unmasked retreats and teaches therapists nationally about the complex lived realities of neurodivergent adults. So excited to hear from you.
Kory 1:43
Let's do this.
Jenn 1:44
Great. We're
Kory 1:45
going to start with a visual because I'm a visual learner. Okay, so I will explain the meaning tree. So one of the things that I've noticed working with autistic adults is that sometimes just the term mindfulness can really turn people offer scare them in the beginning, because I think our our relationship with our body is a little bit different, and there's really no two ways that neurodivergent adults present that are the same. So what we try to do in practice, in sessions, is to figure out ways that are kind of like universal for everybody to connect better to their body, to connect better to their life and to feel regulated. So I A lot of times lean towards the word regulation instead of mindfulness. So that's where the meaning tree came from. So I'll take you through some of the concepts of the tree to help get us into the framework for what we're going to talk about today. So if you look at the tree, this helps you to understand what it might be like for a neurodivergent person's nervous system. So I'm not going to ask you today to scan your body or to breathe deeply, but if any of those things feel good to you, go for it. Sometimes that feels great, and sometimes that feels really, really exhausting for people. So we're just going to kind of notice some of the things that make up this tree together. So on this framework, we look at the bottom first, and if you can notice the roots of the tree are created from autonomy and solitude. So think about autonomy in your own life, how much control you have over your environment, where you live, the people who are around you, how you interact with those people. Think about the autonomy that you have in your schedule, what you're doing all day, how long you're doing those things for, how much you like the things that you're doing. Your choices, if you have the option to leave, if you have the option to leave even for just a small amount of time, but how much freedom to choose what you're doing that you have in your life? Can you say no? Do you feel comfortable saying no? And one thing I really love to encourage people to think about is, who do you feel most comfortable saying no to? Because a lot of times that's not everybody. And then when we think about autonomy, we often think about solitude as well. These are the roots of what has to be there for most people to feel regulated. So when I think of solitude, we're not thinking about loneliness, but we're thinking about time, deliberate time to just sit with yourself. Think about a protective place where you might go, a place where nobody is perceiving you, a place where maybe you can sit with no sensory things going on, or maybe some very cozy sensory things that you prefer to enjoy by yourself. Maybe it's dark, maybe it smells really good, maybe you're closed in a tight space, or maybe you're just sitting somewhere and enjoying that there's no one around to notice what you're doing. Solitude is incredibly, incredibly important for regulation for neurodivergent people, and we often feel very guilty making time for solitude, and our mental health absolutely depends on this solitude, so we have to find it wherever. We can sometimes it's a few minutes in your car before you go back in the house. Sometimes it's sitting in the closet, the dark place, and sometimes it's just enjoying a few more minutes in the shower before you get ready for your day. But just notice where the solitude shows up for you, and think about what comes to mind when you are happiest by yourself. So when we go from the roots all the way up to the trunk. The trunk is the core, I think, of the neurodivergent experience. One thing I love about neurodivergent people is that we really tend to live lives based on meaning. We don't do things arbitrarily. We like to lean in in places where we feel like we're making a difference, where what we're doing matters and that we matter, we're often drawn to other people that make us feel like we matter, and other people that are doing meaningful things as well. We don't do things just to do them often. So think about where the meaning is in your life. Maybe places where you're helping people, maybe places where you're seeing people that aren't typically seen. Maybe it's showing up for your family. Maybe it's being patient for someone who other people have trouble being patient with. It could be creating something being unique. It could be advocating. It could be teaching something. But think about the places where you feel the best in your life and that you're here for a reason, or maybe there's a season that you're in right now where that meaning feels really hard to access, or you're not sure what the meaning is. And just notice that, notice what kind of meaning you want to have, or think back on a time in the past when you felt really, really connected to what you were here to do, and think about how good that felt. Where do you feel the most meaning in your life right now? And who are you around when you feel most meaningful? And when we go from the meaning to all the branches, these are sort of the day to day things that we can do that help connect to the core of what we've already talked about. So we can think about things like predictability. Where do you bring predictability to your own life? Do you wake up every day and have coffee the same way, the same time, in the same cup? If you're me, you absolutely do the same two cups. Do you have a bedtime ritual that you really like where you wind down and do the same things every day. Do you call a certain friend every week on Fridays? What are some of the things that you do that feel comfortable because they're familiar? Think about some of the places where you might be able to bring some predictability and create that sense of comfort for yourself, maybe the chair that you're sitting in, or a special hoodie that you like to wear on the weekends, but things that feel cozy. And then we think of connection the next branch. Who do you feel connected with? Who are some of the people that make you feel like you're important to be around? And where are you connecting with those people? Is it in person? Is it over text? Is it a group on the internet? Is it a video game? Does your connection look like other people? Or does your connection look very unique? There's all different kinds of connection, but all connection is valid, connection, and that's really, really important. Nobody gets to tell you what your connection should look like. The next branch is the brain. Think about what makes your brain feel good? Maybe it's learning. Maybe it's getting really, really deep in the same interest for a long time. Maybe it's being around other people that think like you. Maybe your brain needs breaks and pause and thinks that maybe other brains don't need and that's okay. Does your brain fill with song lyrics? Does your brain feel with worries? Does your brain like to replay your day at the end of the day and think of all the things that you did wrong. Think about what your brain wants and what you're giving your brain, and how often you're giving your brain something that is just for you. And special interests, my favorite branch, think about the things that light you up, the things that make you smile all over it could be something like a coffee cup or your favorite pen, or animals, the dog that greets you at the door that you can't imagine your life without. It could be really nerdy things. It could be a type of book that you like to read. It could be a topic that you like to research. But think about how good it feels when you have uninterrupted time, when you can really explore those special interests unapologetically, and also think about the people around you who can handle your special interests, people who celebrate what you're interested in, people who are excited to hear about your latest thing, and people who join you with similar intensity with their special interest to move on to safety. The safety branch. What makes you feel safe, safe in your body, safe in your relationships, safe in your connections with people. Is it you know certain clothes that you wear that feel really comfy? Is it the way that people know you really well and you can show. Up as your full self. Is it physical safety, taking care of your body, things like that, which leads us into the body branch. Think about your body and what makes your body feel good? I think a lot of neurodivergent people, we are sometimes feeling like we're at war with our bodies, and what everybody needs is different. So your body might need to be still, your body might need to be moving constantly or doing things that other people don't need to do, to relax, and that's totally okay. So thinking about what makes your body super happy. Is it happier when it's warm? Is it happier when it is sitting by itself? Is it happier when it's moving really intensely. Is it happier with heavy things sitting on top of your body? Is it heavy? Is it happier with soft blankets, soft everything? There's a lot of things that can make our bodies happy that maybe we haven't even tried yet. So is there something that your body wants to have that you haven't given it a chance to experience yet? Maybe floating, maybe some kind of like new exercise. Think about what your body's inclined to do, medication. Let's take our meds, if we need meds, if we use meds, there's no shame in that. Noticing how your body feels, maybe sometimes with medication, that's the first deep breath that we've taken all day, or the predictability of knowing that we'll be able to get our work done when we take our meds, or knowing that the aches and pains that we have all day go away for a couple hours. But there's absolutely no shame in taking care of your body in ways that we need to with medication. And the last one is green stuff. Think about the last time you were in nature or you looked out the window and saw something really beautiful, or maybe you smell the flower sitting on your table. They say that the one of the most regulating things we can do for our bodies as neurodivergent people is get ourselves outside and just take it all in. We don't have to be running, we don't have to be walking the dog. We can just literally sit in a chair outside our house and take in all the green stuff and notice what it does for our body, and it has an amazingly powerful impact on our regulation, our mood. And sometimes it's a really good reset, even if you only have five minutes. So just notice, if you can do anything outside, what your body might want to do and what green stuff you might want to surround yourself with. All right. Now, let's get into it. What do you think, Jen,
Jenn 12:27
that was wonderful. I really appreciated that. Thank you so much. So that's something that you will walk people through. Or, you know, what's the context that you might use that maybe there's multiple I'm assuming,
Kory 12:39
we often use that as a tool. I use it probably a lot of different ways. But not everyone is as comfortable doing that kind of a like an experiential thing in session, because they find that they enjoy it more when they're not perceived. So we will often talk about, how would you like to use this outside? Or, like, come up with some ideas we might focus on one branch at a time like, hey, which branches are not really getting a lot of attention right now? You know, what might that look like for you? What can you do before we meet again to tend to one of these branches? But you know which one comes up the most is solitude? Like we are just hurting for solitude, and I think there's a lot of shame and guilt around wanting to just be alone and not be perceived. So a lot of the work with the tree is talking about, you know, why we feel so guilty needing something for our individual bodies, and why that can be so hard when you're a part of a family system and, you know a parent and you know an employee and all those things. So that's often a place where we spend a lot of time. Is the solitude piece?
Jenn 13:39
Yeah, no. I mean, what's standing out to me as you're talking to is even just this language about being perceived, you know, I think about there's probably so much even there for us to dive into. We could certainly go there. I am curious if you might be open to sharing with the, you know, our community, a little bit about how you arrived at doing this work yourself and your own relationship. Yeah,
Kory 14:02
it's wild. I worked in the schools for 20 years. I ended up working with a lot of neurodivergent kids while I was working in the schools, just kind of by chance. It wasn't, it wasn't a choice, but that tends to be, who, who kind of comes to your office and all the in between times. And I just loved the work. I loved the kids that were getting in trouble. I loved the kids that were making the big social faux pas, and I found that I had this amazing community of teenagers that were just so honest and creative and quirky and fun, and I was just drawn to them from from day one. I mean, I remember my very first day at work, and I was just like, these kids are great. And, you know, all these years later, I'm like, oh, right, there was a reason why I was drawn to those kiddos. But you know, it started as, you know, having like, a safe lunch where, you know, kids could come in and avoid the lunch room, and kids could come in when they didn't want to go to the pep rally and stuff like that. So it ended up being a lot more than the basics of the job. It was a lot of relationship building and really just creating a safe. Space for kids that felt really traumatized in the school setting. You know, the lunch room is awful. Pep rallies are awful. A lot of the things they expect you to do socially are pretty tough. And then from there, you know, when, when things started getting really tough in the school system, I started to feel like I really wasn't a part of anything that I felt good about anymore. It got really tricky to do the right thing, and there was a lot of red tape and a lot of, you know, kind of hiding behind policies when we really should have been helping kids. And so it just felt really obvious to me that it was time to go. And I had already started working in private practice a few years before, and I just took the jump and said, You know, I want to, I want to do more. I want to help people on my terms and not have to play the games of the system. So I went into private practice. And, you know, my own family has deeply impacted my work. I have a very, very neurodivergent family, although many of them don't know that. So I was very inspired by working with adults, you know, who are kind of coming to this assessment place, you know, in their 30s, 40s, 50s and up. So I just found that it was kind of it like, put the spark back in, starting something new and going down a new path with a similar theme for me. And then, you know, once I started, like everything I do, I get incredibly intense. And just kept going and going and going. So it was advocacy work and writing and, you know, presenting and helping other people learn different things that they weren't seeing in practice. And it's just been a beautiful, beautiful journey. I really love where I've ended up, and what I like the most probably has something to do with the tree. But I think I realized that a lot of what was working for me in the school was a lot of meaning there. There's connection and relationships and all these beautiful things, and a lot of autonomy and a ton of solitude in my work. But there were, there were games you had to play. And you know, you can't always go with the right thing. You know, you have to play into the system. And now I just, my body is comfy, and my home office, and my dogs are at my feet, and, you know, I'm able to have autonomy. And I actually probably work twice as hard, you know, there's more work to do, there's more hours in the day, and I find that I am completely energized by this work, and it is. It's really been transformative in my life, and not just my job.
Jenn 17:16
That's so beautiful, and there's so so much there. And I think even where you ended right this, like this piece about being energized by our work, and how that is such a great litmus test and and how it's often not one that we're encouraged to even check out for ourselves. It's like particularly, I think, in the the world of therapy and psychology and helping, there's so much help to be given and done that like, we get to feel good and feel energized by it, and if we don't, then that's like, that's an indicator of so
Kory 17:46
it's so true. Somebody asked me this morning, a client said, How do you do this? Like, it's so heavy right now. People are in such a bad place. Everyone must be bringing you their existential things. And I was like, true. I mean, there's certainly, I'm not gonna lie. There are days when at the end of the day, I'm like, I don't even have words. I really just need to go sit in a dark room. But there are also, there's a sense of like, shared humanity and shared purpose, and, you know, shared human experience that I started to feel during covid. You know, you really felt that in private practice then, but it's the same thing now. You know, you really like as much as people are coming to you with their hurts, they're also coming to you with their energy, with their passions, with their ideas and the beautiful things they're doing, and that rubs off on you as well. I mean, we often talk about the bad stuff, but it's very inspiring to do this job. And I, you know, I don't think everybody can say that. I really love that about the work that I do.
Jenn 18:35
Yeah, agreed fully. Well, I'd love to kind of dive in a little bit around, you know, one of the things you talk about is that maybe autism and neurodivergence, you know, whether we're, you know, the terminology and sort of umbrella term, I guess, of neurodivergence, but is, is an unrecognized trauma, and like a nervous system experience, not just a diagnosis. And kind of curious to hear you share more about that and give us your perspective and expertise around that?
Kory 19:04
Absolutely, yeah, I think that. I think the thing that I've come to realize over the years working with adults is that it, you know, the neurodivergent experience is very physical. Our nervous system is probably the most noteworthy thing that is unique in that, you know, so many things trigger our nervous system, in our environment, in our society, like culturally, there's so many things going on that are really hard for us to, you know, kind of just assimilate to so it almost, to me, feels like the trauma framework is something that most people are familiar with. You know, if you say to somebody, do you know what it feels like when you're getting a car accident and you get out of the car and everybody's looking at you, and you know you might cry, you might feel frozen, you might want to run, you might not speak, those types of things, like our bodies are feeling that way much of the time. And there is no car accident that anyone can see. So if you look at the way kids and adults act, you know when they're when they're struggling with nervous system challenges in any way it is. Familiar to people. We've all been there, but what we can't see is what caused it. There is no obvious car accident. So I use that framework a lot in places where we don't understand, you know, we don't understand, like neurodivergence, necessarily. It's hard to explain to a school system what neurodivergence does to the body, but they understand trauma. So you can say, hey, it's very similar. When that kid wasn't talking to you, they weren't being disrespectful, they were shut down and frozen, things like that. So I really try to understand, you know, and help other people understand the body is really more so what we're paying attention to, and the nervous system is the biggest part of that. So, you know, it's things like sensory things. You know, it's not just, we always say sensory sensitivities. Well, they're not really sensitivities. The way that the sensory experiences land with people is often really traumatic. So if you think about all the things that hit all of your senses throughout the day, if you're sensitive to that kind of thing, by the end of the day, you're exhausted, and your body feels like it's been through war. So thinking about it as you know, a system that needs to be taken care of and accommodated in the same way that you would help someone with trauma and not be re traumatized every single day. So it's almost like a puzzle for each person, figuring out, like, what makes your nervous system happy, what makes it on edge, and also undoing some of the shame around that. I think a lot of us have been told that our reactions are ridiculous and that, you know, I don't think I've met with anyone yet that hasn't been told they're too much or, you know, they're overreacting. So if you think of like, you know, little kiddos that are like, Ah, it's so cold I can't eat that it's too spicy. Like, you know, whatever the things are, they're being honest about their experience, but everybody else is looking around being like, it's not that cold, you know, it's not that cold, you know, it's not that spicy, like, come on, you're okay. So we learn to check out, like, we check out from our bodies. We learn not to trust what our nervous system is telling us all the time. And a lot of my work is helping people to really tap back into that and go, No, you were right all the time, but now you're learning to, like, push that down and not listen to the signs that your body is giving you
Jenn 22:06
so powerful I can't imagine the meaning that's made from, you know, being in a school, a school environment in particular, you know, but, but you know, from an early age, being a part of systems and structures that are not responsive or designed for, you know, a neurodivergent experience, and how intense that must be,
Kory 22:24
yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's even, even beyond, like, I'm shocked. I think I thought when I started working with adults, it would be so different, like, oh, we'll be talking about totally different things. We're not. I mean, we're really not. And, you know, even with adults, I particularly hear this a lot when I'm doing individual work, where people will say, you know, I came home and I had decided I was going to eat XYZ, and we didn't have it, and next thing you know, you know, I'm crying in my kitchen, or I went to brunch with my friends, and, you know, the thing I always get they didn't have in the menu, and I had to leave because I had a meltdown. And the shame that people are having because they're like, I should be able to just handle these things when the reality is like your brain is literally wired for predictability, and that was safe, and that was the food you were thinking about all day. And we don't get to decide when our nervous system just, you know, drops out on us. And it is, it's embarrassing, it's shameful. And, you know, how am I in my 40s and I'm crying over, you know, chicken well, because you are. And so some of it is, you know, just coming to terms with the fact that we can't predict everything. We can't, you know, even if we know a lot of the things that are going to set us off, we can't stop them from happening, but we can choose not to be beating ourselves up on top of it when these things happen. And that's a really common theme that comes up in adults that have just figured out why they've been crying over, you know, the end of the cereal box for their whole lives. I
Jenn 23:43
mean, that must be such an amazing experience to also walk someone through, or be with someone through that process of, like, those light bulbs, sort of moments of, oh my gosh, like, I now I am starting to understand why. Yeah, so for me, what comes up, right, is, like the feeling about the the feeling, or the feeling about the experience and how that seems like such a powerful place to start is bringing in that self compassion.
Kory 24:06
Yes, absolutely. And if you can, if you can connect with that, then other people connect with it too. You know, if they see you being self compassionate, they're going to look at you a different way. But I think most of the people that I work with like they they're the hardest on themselves, and people follow suit. So it is, it is a beautiful thing to see. And just like, you know, I think anything with psycho education, it's sort of like what we taught we were taught groups would be like, and I think a lot of that happens in even individual therapy with neurodivergent people is that, you know, they don't really know about the experience that other people are having and how common these things are. So when you can say to someone like, oh, like, I lose my shit all the time over food that doesn't go the way, you know, it was planned. They're like, really, I'm like, oh yeah. Cried last week. Like, it's helpful to know that other people are talking about those things. And then you can access that self compassion that maybe you've been pushing down for a long time.
Jenn 24:57
Love this, I love that you're kind of guiding us. To this conversation you and I have had before, around breaking that third wall of like, I'm a person too, and I fuck up, or I struggle, or I struggle with the very same thing that you're bumping into. And yeah, I'd love to just hear more about how you show up in the therapeutic space like that, because I think it's something a lot of therapists and providers are doing and also have shame about
Kory 25:26
yes at the same time Yes. I remember my therapist long before I knew I was autistic, and I remember every once in a while she would let me in on something, you know, she'd tell me, like, Oh yeah, you know, my partner has that, or I really struggle with that. And I remember I would go home with like, the biggest smile on my face, and I would be like, she is human. She's real. It's like, when you're a little kid and you see your teacher at the store and you're like, hey, Cheerios, this is crazy. Like it's so validating to know that you know they are a person and they're not this just all knowing being that's telling you what to do. And I that always just resonated with me, and when I started working with adults, I kind of continued what I had always done with teenagers, and teenagers don't let you BS them. I mean, they're going to ask you the inappropriate questions. They're going to demand an answer like and I loved that. I was totally cool with that. So it's continued, and I honestly think it is the single, probably most important thing you can do when you're working with a population that is marginalized and is having a really tough time in our world, is just be a human so, you know, I don't need to make the session about me. I don't need to tell them my life story, or, you know, get into the details of all these things. But, you know, asking, would it, would it be helpful for you if I shared something, or, you know, a lot of other people I work with also say that they have trouble with XYZ. Can I share a story, you know, things like that. You can immediately see people taking a deep breath and going, Oh, I really thought that was just me. And it starts with the assessment process. I do a lot of assessments, and people are coming in and we're asking them stories from childhood. We're asking them about, you know, employment, intimacy, like, really, really private things. And it's just, it's so amazing to watch people like, have this realization that the things that they thought about themselves that were broken, you know, they thought that they were the only person that had this struggle when you can share, like, oh, like, when I have meltdowns, I am in the corner of that closet right there, hiding behind my clothes with headphones on. And I look like every kid you've seen on TV, and they're like, what, you know, you have meltdowns. I'm like, we Yes. Oh my gosh, yes. So much yes. So it's, it's really been, I think it just builds trust. And I don't think it's what we were taught in school. You know, people were so judgy about like you're making it about you, and I think you can absolutely make it about the person, and still be a human being and share and I'm seeing so much more of that. And I love it. I really, really love the people that I that I know, that are colleagues that are doing that. And especially, I think in the neurodivergent community, there's this idea of, you know, when we get ourselves in trouble this way, but you know, if somebody shares a story like, oh, this thing happened to me. Our first instinct is try to connect with it, like we think of our own self focus like, oh, yeah, I have had that experience, too. And then we share that. And sometimes that's misunderstood by people who are not autistic as, like, one upping or, why are you making making this about you? But when you have two autistic people, they often really enjoy that, like, you know what I'm talking about, kind of thing. So of course, you have to feel the person out and make sure that they're comfortable with it. But overall, overall, I think it is a really, really important piece of building trust with anyone really.
Jenn 28:33
I mean absolutely, I think that you know so much of what, maybe the the feeling was 100 years ago or even 50 years ago, around what a therapist did, what a psychologist did, was around providing answers and techniques, as opposed to actually creating a safe space, a human experience, one where people can be seen and particularly with the community that you work with and in. It's like if you're marginalized and systems are not designed for you. I can imagine all the ways that it's so important to normalize the responses that are happening so that folks don't feel alone or don't feel crazy for responding in a way that's actually quite predictable, given
Kory 29:14
Yes,
Jenn 29:15
the world that we live in,
Kory 29:16
yeah, and it's beautiful to be flawed with other people. I my favorite story is I had a client years ago come in, and he was like, I just got to tell you something. It's like, 8am on a Friday. He's like, I just got to tell you something. I've been watching that show shrinking, and if I learned anything, it's that you therapists are just as fucked up as we are. And I laughed so hard, and I was like, first of all, not seeing the show, but second of all, you're absolutely right. And now we like, we still laugh about the show to this day. But I think that's why people like that show because they're like, Oh my God, how messy, how complicated. And, you know, nobody wants to feel like they're being examined or judged or, you know, oh, this weird thing that comes in. And it's amazing how someone just seeing you without judgment can make you feel so different about the things that you don't like about yourself. And I've watched people go from. So much self loathing to really finding this, you know, appreciation and and it's like part of that is the struggle together. You know, I'm showing up in a hoodie. I'm showing up looking a mess some days like, I'm showing up like as a real human who messes up my schedule and forgets to send emails, and I own all of that, because that is the beauty of executive functioning. We're all struggling with it. So I just, I never put myself on some pedestal of being an all knowing person. I really feel like I want people to see me as a teammate of like, let's figure this out together. Let me throw some stuff at the wall with you, and let's see what sticks. And I learned just as much from my clients as I think that they do and, you know, in capacities where I'm supposed to be the, you know, professional. And I think anybody who doesn't like they can't be honest, like, there's just no way that other people don't feel that way. It's a beautiful relationship.
Jenn 30:49
Yeah, no, I love that. And I think, you know, one of the greatest things that I've really loved is the opportunity to work with other therapists when they're going through sort of their own crises. That's been a real passion and joy of mine, to be able to normalize that and to begin to refine even my understanding of why we're here. Like,
Jenn 31:09
yes, I'm
Jenn 31:09
not here as a therapist, because I know, I know the answers. I'm here because I can listen and hold space and get curious with you and be your teammate. I mean, that's a beautiful way to say it. And I guess I'm wondering if you might share a bit on the flip side of what you've observed when folks are met with providers who misrecognize What's happening with the harm that can happen from seeking help and then being missed or pathologized for something or judged for something that is, again, predictable, given one's nervousness.
Kory 31:43
Well, they say, I've read that on average, autistic adults have been misdiagnosed eight times before they get the actual diagnosis. And I got to tell you, I think that number is low, and it's like, it's almost it's so textbook that I want, I'm like, I have a very pattern seeking brain, and things just stick that are interesting to me. So I know that's not everyone's experience, but if you knew how many people came in my office and said the exact same thing, like verbatim, same words, same everything, it would just blow people away. And people are coming in telling the same story. My doctor blew me off. My therapist told me I'm crazy. You can't be autistic because you make eye contact, you have friends, you're so smart, you know, you're a good reader. I mean, there's a million reasons why people are told they don't know themselves. And I was told all the same things. I mean, very recently. I mean, these are not like, long stories of long ago, like, these are things that happened recently, and they're still happening. And, you know, even this week, I had a client go into a psychiatrist trying somebody new, and the doctor was like, you don't have ADHD. And she's like, so here's the paperwork. And I was assessed 10 years ago. You know, I've been on meds for the and they're like, no, no, and just like, I You can't undo that trauma. So when people come to you, the first thing that they want to know is, like, are you gonna believe me? And I'm like, yeah. Like, I mean that if I do nothing else, like, I'm going to believe you. But that's what's happening, is that, you know, people are coming in saying, Hey, this is really wild. But I seem to have all these medical things going on that coincide with autism, and my whole family is neurodivergent. And also, you know, have these very common, you know, traits that are popping up. And I really think I know what's going on here. And provider after provider after provider is like, borderline, nope, nope. That's just depression, Nope, just anxiety. And they will call it everything but autism. And you know, it's taking people to this place where I have so many clients that have been on meds for 20 years that are not doing anything for them. And I'm like, at any point, was your doctor, like, this may not be a good idea. And they're like, no, they don't really, they don't really ask, like, so we're just, we're getting bad information. And in my like, in my heart, in my most charitable moments, I think that, you know, a lot of us really want to understand, and we don't know where to go to get updated information. We don't have great trainings. We don't have theory that works for this population yet. We really don't have a ton of research to go by that's very good. And so I think we want to understand, but oftentimes we don't have access to the tools to even recognize who's sitting in front of us and what's going on with them. But I'm not always in that charitable headspace. You know, harm is being done. It's not just like, oh, I sort of got this a little off. It's like, No, I missed this huge thing that makes this person's entire life make sense, and they deserve to have that clarity. So a lot of what I'm doing is dealing with, actually, trauma from people that they went to and trusted for help that didn't have the information. So the you know, the way it works in my mind is, you know, if somebody comes to me for addiction, like, I'm not an addiction specialist, like I have no business talking to you about addiction, I can talk about the way it intersects with autism. But if that's truly what you're here for, I'm going to send you to someone with that background. We have to do better with that. And that's what's that's what's going wrong is that, rather than saying, I don't know a ton about autism, why don't we get you to somebody who does? People would very often rather say, No, I don't think that's what this is like. Let's, let's look at something else.
Jenn 35:12
I think about also the, you know, really strong power dynamics that are present too, when you have a provider who kind of holds the keys to so much, and then someone coming to seek care and help is being essentially gaslit or whatever about their own internal experience and felt experience when they living in their body. And I feel like I see it again and again is, I don't, you know, when I feel charitable, I'm like, It's burnout, it's frustration, it's whatever, but the lack of curiosity, of, like, maybe I don't know the answer, actually, maybe my perspective is skewed based on my training or this moment. So like, How can I curious?
Kory 35:52
Well, and that, I think that's my biggest disappointment, and that leads into the power piece too. Of you know, you're sitting in this chair as an expert. You're sitting in this chair as maybe the one chance this person has of, like, getting up all their courage to ask for help. And I think we very frequently forget how much power we have, and that, like, we can use that power for good, or we can throw it right out the window and, like, that's what I see. And it it really worries me, not just for the individual clients, but it worries me in a systemic way too. I mean, there, when I go to a training, when I'm teaching on, you know, a neurodivergent topic, at a neurodivergent space, you know, a place where we are gathering a lot of neurodivergent therapists, I am, you know, just welcomed with open arms. And, you know, people are just like, that's me. Yes, that, yes that, you know. And everyone is kind of, like, so excited by the information. But when I go into generalist therapy spaces, and I'm, you know, teaching the same information and saying, like, from lived experience, from the mouths of my clients, from what I'm seeing in practice that maybe you're not seeing in practice, like, these are really important things that we understand, there is frequently no curiosity of just like, that's not a thing that I do, that's not a population I'm interested in. And so until we understand that like, that is a population you work with, whether you know it or not, you know these are all of our clients, we're not going to grow. We're not going to learn more things. So that, I think that's the power dynamic that worries me the most is that we've learned everything has changed in the last five or 10 years. I mean, we've gone a full 180 with language, with, you know, assessments, with diagnosis, with all of it. And we, I think we have to be open to the idea that, like, I'm sorry, it's not the 80s or 90s. It's not what we learned in grad school anymore. We have to evolve.
Jenn 37:39
Yeah, no, that's so powerful. Yeah. I think prevalence, right and then, and the ways that things show up, and the idea of what people have as either neurodivergence or autism as being a really specific,
Kory 37:53
yes,
Jenn 37:54
inaccurate
Speaker 1 37:55
niche,
Jenn 37:55
yeah, I guess I'm curious too about like, you know, you let us through that embodiment practice in the beginning and and just like sort of practice in general, but like, you know, as a person who works a lot around embodiment and how our body processes things, you know, how does embody? How do embodied approaches look different with the folks that you work with?
Kory 38:19
It's so different. And I think the more the more that I do this work, the more I realize that it's so much less about feelings that we can talk about, and so much more about what's happening in our bodies. The unique piece, I think, with autistic adults specifically, is that, you know, we can't assume there's any universal way to talk about our body experience. I think even in my own experience, like five or 10 years ago, I would not have understood anxiety in my body the way that I do now. And you really have to have somebody walk you through that to realize, like, you don't even know what you don't know. So, you know, a lot of times, especially, I see this a lot with men, you know, they'll come in and say, I'm not anxious. And then their partners come in and they're like, they're anxious all the time, like, you know, this is constant body stuff, constant nervous system stuff. So sometimes we're actually, we're starting at the beginning. I mean, we're really starting at the kind of education that you might be giving young kiddos. And say, like, do you notice that feeling like, what is that? You know, what's going on in your chest? And the answer is, many times, no, I don't notice that. Feeling like, I don't notice anything until I'm raging or I don't notice anything until I'm sobbing. So we have to change all of the details of what we're doing with body work for each individual person. And it's really wild and down to like, things that you wouldn't even think of. I have these unmasking retreats where it's, you know, 10 of us in a house and for a couple days, and we're talking about unmasking and all these things. And one of the people who came to the first one said, Have you ever thought about the fact that I can't imagine things in my head? And I was like, say more, you know? And he was explaining, like, I can't, you know, I can't visualize things. So when you say to me, like, do you remember that time when blah, blah, blah, he's like, I have no, like, No, I can't remember it number one. But even if. It's something that, like, I know happened. He's like, I can't like, I can't picture it. So that makes it very, very difficult to connect with something that calms you down, or to, you know, go somewhere pleasant in your mind. So it's often a combination of many, many things like that. You know, I don't notice what's going on in my body in real time, and then later I put the pieces together. So if that's how somebody works with their body, then what do you think is going to happen when they're doing EMDR, and we're like, where do you feel that in your body? Where do you feel that in your body? Where do you feel that in your body? And they're like, I don't. Like, I don't it's like, stop yelling at me. So they feel like they're doing therapy wrong. They feel like they're doing a lot of things wrong because their body is not actually giving them the cues. And beyond that. Like, think of how this impacts eating disorders or addiction or, you know, noticing your internal cues, noticing all of that stuff. Well, what if you don't have internal cues? So there's just a lot of assumptions that we make that I think we have to be really careful with. So I think it's just personal to each person, and I try to understand with a lot of curiosity. Like, make me understand what's going on with your particular body. And let's start there.
Jenn 41:04
I love that that resonates so hard with that given our approach in the trauma sensitive yoga model with that same thing is that it the ways that trauma impacts each one of our own bodies is different based on the thing that happened, based on the person we are, based on where we are. Where we are developmentally, and then how that echoes over time. And so if we if we're not curious, then we're just imposing another structure that's not going to meet someone where they're at or allow them to lead, or we're making assumptions. And you know, I don't know if you find this, but I also find we get programmed to behave or please, and so a lot of times, clients will just lie to therapists too. It's like, Oh, I feel it here. Or, Yes, this is happening because it's too painful to go to the process of I or there's not even space for the process of, I don't feel anything in my body. I don't have
Kory 42:00
access to sensation 100% or I feel, I remember, in the very beginning of doing this work, so many people would say, like, I have this amorphous blob of feels. And they a lot of times, they would use those exact words, like different people are saying the same thing, and they're like, it's this blob of feels. Or they'd say it feels really unpleasant. And I'm like, What does unpleasant mean? You know that? Like, it's like, you know, thumbs up, thumbs down. But now I'm like, great, we know unpleasant, unpleasant could be a lot of different things. Like, let's go with that. And I think, you know, we start with language that we have at first, and then we kind of build on that. And it's funny, because, you know, no one I work with is lacking vocabulary, quite the opposite. But, you know, making, making it make sense what's going on in the body. And like the words you use for that, I've had so many people come in and go, so I noticed you used the word anxiety last week, and I would not say that I'm anxious. And they genuinely believe that anxiety means you feel like you're running from a tiger. And I'm like, Well, that is one way it could feel. But you know, sitting in front of your email going, I can't make myself read this. I can't make myself respond, is also anxiety, and so we kind of have to, like, figure out how that body stuff fits in with, like, the language you're using. But a lot of the autistic experience, I think truly, the big body thing is overwhelm, and we don't say that, like in therapy even. I mean, for years, I was doing this wrong, but, you know, talk therapy, it's like, you know, how did that make you feel? What were you thinking before? What were you telling yourself that wasn't true? None of that. None of that applies here. You know, what you're really asking is like, what was happening in your body when you were totally overwhelmed by things that you maybe couldn't even identify and you were just trying to be a human. So that's a very different therapy session than how did that make you feel? You know?
Jenn 43:40
No, that's, it's huge. And I think, you know, one of the things, as you're talking I'm imagining that, that some people could be listening and feeling like, wow, there's a lot that I don't know, or maybe there's a lot of mistakes I've made, which is sometimes part of the the learning process, right? Or that's what brings us back to learning. But it if you were, I think I feel like you've been naming these things. But I'm wondering, you know, are there certain fundamental things that you feel like therapists, providers don't understand or misunderstand about autism or neurodivergence that could just be a seed for folks to plant in?
Kory 44:19
There's, I think there's so many, there are so many patterns and things that are that are actually really just human traits. But we're not looking for just one trait. We're looking at patterns of traits. So I think that there's a lot of, there are a lot of questions that you could ask your clients that would be so validating and help you understand where they're coming from. And I think that's a lot of where people get invalidated is, you know, they'll say something like, you know, I feel like my brain is really busy and, you know, I can't stop thinking about what I should be doing as a parent, you know, say, with a new baby. And most therapists will be like, it's totally normal. Everybody feels that way. And it's like, yeah, get that is, it is totally normal to have a new baby and have a lot of thoughts and want to be a good mom and think about it all. Time. But you know, when people give you, like, a little nugget like that, like, we can't just drop that and be like, Okay, it's just a new mom thing. Like, we have to ask further questions. And that was the thing that blew my mind. Is like, you know, there's a handful of questions that I'm like, you this could be the whole assessment, because they're all giving the same answers. You know, how did you feel about group work when you were in school? And 99.9% of autistic people are like, Oh my God, what a nightmare. Like, it was terrible. You know, what are you thinking about when you go to bed at night? Oh, I'm replaying all the conversations that I had during the day and thinking about how I fucked them up. And it's like, so like that actually isn't what you're supposed to be doing after a socialization like, you know, I went to this party. Did you have a good time? I don't know. I probably said the wrong thing. You know, people probably hate me. And it's not low self esteem. It's not in just an anxiety disorder. It's really this, like, I don't know how people perceive me. I don't know if I did, you know, peopling, right? I don't know what the what this looks like for other people. And I was so overwhelmed in the environment, I'm not even sure what actually happened. So things like that, like, we're often seeing things that are human. Yes, of course, anxiety is human, but we have to get more details to understand how it fits into the neurodivergent framework. And I think often people will get you there if you're asking the right questions. So just paying attention to some of the themes. Like a lot of people say, How do you know the difference between trauma and autism, and I'm like, Well, here's the thing, trauma can affect the body in a lot of ways, for sure, but I don't know that trauma makes you rip the tags out of your shirt in like, real time, you know, like that. That's not unless there's something that's very specific going on there, but that is a really common thing, you know. Or, you know, traumatized people don't necessarily only wear very soft fibers or wear the same shoes for years and years and years and years, unless there's something going on there. So if you look at the big patterns of it's never just one thing, like all of these things come in clusters of patterns, and we just have to ask better questions. And those questions are out there, you know? Those are, those are things that you can learn more about, like, what are some of the green flags for autism that I need to
Jenn 46:59
know? And people have you as a resource too. You have your websites, great. You you write, you speak. Are there other, other places, and we'll share information, but places you'd want to point folks to learn more about? You know, this world that may be just opening up for the first time for some folks?
Kory 47:17
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think one of the things that used to make me roll my eyes before I knew I was autistic, is, you know, when people would say, Oh, you really have to have an autistic provider if you want somebody to get in, I'd be like, Oh, that's a slippery slope. Like, that's not fair. I don't think you have to have an experience to do a good job working with people. That would be a really bad premise as any therapist. However, you know, I think what the way I would shift that is, I would say, I think even if you're a neurotypical person, like, you need to learn from autistic people. So I really find that when I go to train for anything you know, like, if I'm going to learn about addiction, like, please talk to me as someone who has lived that, so I can understand in your words and the way that it makes sense. Or if you work with this, like, teach me what you've learned from clients. So I think it's really, really important to get the information from people who are living it. And what I find is like, do I look like what you thought autism looks like? Typically, not. So when I get up and stand in front of a room full of people and I'm giving a presentation, they're probably going, you don't look like Rain Man. I'm like, You're right. I don't. And you know, third day of the conference, when I'm like, a total mess in my room, and, you know, I'm crying for no reason and need my dogs and my soft fibers and all that, like I look real autistic then, but we don't often, we don't know what it looks like for people that are high masking. And so that that's a piece of it too, is that, you know, you kind of have to throw what you know out the window, and really like tap into what people are willing to share with you. So social media is one of my very favorite places to learn, because people are going to tell you there are firsthand accounts. They're telling you real information. Now, read things too, you know, read, read real stuff. You know, I definitely think that there are some great resources, but I find memoir to be fascinating. I find, like, you know, any kind of social media post where people are sharing their really vulnerable things to be something that sticks with me in a different way than a textbook did.
Jenn 49:13
I'm so thankful that the lived experience is being centered in a way that it never has been in our work. I mean, because that's who knows the experience more than someone who has lived it? Yes, right, yeah, and struggled in systems that don't acknowledge it 100%
Kory 49:29
I did a presentation in the fall, and there were, there were a lot of people signed up, and I was like, Wow, this feels like a really important opportunity to, you know, get those all therapists, and I, at the very last minute, decided that I was going to add some firsthand accounts, and I, and I kind of threw something out there in my newsletter and said, is anybody willing to share their story? And I cannot tell you the impact that it had. Like, Sure, great. We go through the information. People want the slides. They want the information. But people were talking. Talking, I was getting emails about the stories that were told. I mean, two minute clips. I am still getting emails. It has been six months since it, you know, since the presentation, because people were blown away at the trauma they had endured, at how unbelievably horrific their stories were from providers. And you can get up there and say that to people all you want, but when you have clients being like and they weren't even clients, they weren't even clients, they were just people who read my newsletter who were like, I want to share my story. But when you have people who have lived it, you know, sharing that, it's so powerful. So I actually think, you know, like outlets like this as well. I mean, podcasts, you know, memoir, people's sub stack pages, please, all of it. I want all of it. I think it's so important,
Jenn 50:41
so great. Well, is there anything that, I mean, we'll share all that your website's amazing and your social media channel, but is there anything that we didn't get to talk to or talk about rather today that you were kind of hoping we would get to?
Kory 50:55
Boy, that's such a that's such a big one. I actually, I'm super interested in the work that you do, and like, where the intersections are. Because, you know, to me, it's like, whenever I talk to other providers that are not in this, like, very specific niche, I'm always clinging to, like, where are the overlaps? Like, what you know, what's universal about the work that all of us are doing, and how are we learning for each other? So I'm just so curious about that. From your perspective, you talk to so many people and you have this very unique perspective, is there any of it that overlaps for you?
Jenn 51:26
I mean, even what you talked about like, sort of the what I think about is the first phase of work that I'm often doing with someone is, kind of, is normalizing their response, explaining why their body would respond that way, and how the systems around them are designed to not support people who have lived through traumatic experience that undermine that, and kind of talking about like, what's underneath that, and the biology of that, to me, that that like renews the like hope circuitry that brings compassion and the sense of what maybe I'm not bad, I'm not wrong, I'm not a difficult kid or difficult person. I wasn't just, like, unable to focus at school because I think a lot of times, you know, trauma neurodivergent can kind of present in similar ways to some degree or and, of course, they coexist often as well. And so I feel like that's a huge piece that, to me, the self led, or like individual tailored approach has to be present for you know, when I see protocols for trauma, I tend I just sort of cringe, in a way, because to me, that's just another way for people to feel like they've failed.
Kory 52:36
Yes,
Jenn 52:36
this doesn't work for me. Why doesn't it work for me? I must be the problem then it rather than, like, maybe this wasn't designed for me, actually,
Kory 52:43
100% and that, like, I couldn't agree more. And I think that's the bit that's the big underlying theme is that, you know, people are leaving therapy going, I guess it's just not working for me. And I'm like, no, no, that type of therapy was not for you. That therapist was not for you. You were not the problem. And you touched on one of my very favorite things. It's just the idea of hope. And I just can't tell you how many people come in and say, Tell me what to do. Just tell me to do I'm like, Oh no, we're not going to do that. Not gonna tell you what to do. Like, I want to sit in this with you, and we're gonna figure this out. But you know, the idea as a neurodivergent person is that you push down your instincts. You learn through trauma that you can't be trusted, that people are disappointed in you, that you're too much. I mean, you learn all these terrible things about yourself through experience. And then, as therapists, you know, we're like, no, no. Like, it's not when you walk in a room that everybody hates you, and like that may very well have been every experience that they've had. And so you know, to come in and provide context to that and help somebody through, like, the idea of understanding what went wrong there, or what is still going wrong there. You're, you know, like, psycho education is giving hope, you know, it's making them understand. And I had a professor in college say, if you do anything in this world of being a therapist, your job is to give them hope. And I still think about that all these years later, and I'm like, Whatever gets you there, you know, if I'm the one smiling face you see in a week, great. Let's start there, you know, and there is so much to be said for trauma and neuro divergence just by showing up and giving somebody hope
Jenn 54:08
absolutely yes, and I think to that piece that you're you've been naming kind of throughout our conversation around not trusting your internal experience and learning to detach from it, numb from it, silence it, cut it off. Like all of that also resonates with me around trauma. Because, you know, oftentimes what's the hallmark of trauma is that there's someone has power, or some, some system has power over us, and so we have to kind of bend and stretch and change ourselves to fit into that structure, an abusive structure, an unsafe one, when we're marginalized, and then what that means is we have to deny what our body is telling us, which is usually safe. This isn't okay. I don't like this. It doesn't feel good like Nope, none of that's okay. So it's it's this really tender process of reconnecting to your internal experience. Sense that can be so fraught with fear, but also like a deep desire to know oneself that I think we probably all carry somewhere inside us, yes to trust ourselves. So
Kory 55:10
yes,
Jenn 55:11
yeah.
Kory 55:11
And that's what, that's the big thing. I see that in the the unmasking retreats are the best place where I see that, where people come in and there's they say, I don't, I don't even know who is underneath this? Like, if I am not my mask to other people, like, I'm just showing up, giving them what they want. Like, I I behave as the girlfriend I want to be. I behave as the mom I think I should be. You know, that kind of thing. And when you can help people go, hold on a second. Like, you actually do know you underneath that. Like, hold on. Like, let's, let's find, maybe only a little bit, but like, that's where the tree helps. It's like, let's follow that. Let's follow what feels natural, what follows. And it takes people a lot of time to reconnect with that feeling of like, trusting any instinct. And it's beautiful to see people connect with other people and find that. And I do think you're right. I think that trauma piece, it's so similar, which is just like you're cutting down the power of masking by helping people say you don't have to do that all the time. Like, there are times when you're going to do that still, sure, but like, you do it when you want to do it, and helping them find a way to, like, be more authentic. And what. What an amazing thing. You know, when a client says, like, No, I don't want to do
Jenn 56:18
that. Yes, please
Kory 56:19
say no. Please say no all day long. Like, I just nothing makes me happier than a client being like, I don't want to talk about that. Yes, totally right there with you. Yeah? And it's like, how do we create those conditions that can actually be genuine and authentic? Yeah, practice that on me. Tell me no all day long. And then we'll work on translating this to other situations. But it's a really, it's a really cool thing. But I think you're right. I think, you know, a lot of therapists will say that they're worried about, you know, assessing autism. Or how do I tell the difference between trauma and autism? Like, Well, what we're seeing right now is autism and trauma. Like, we don't see just autism. There's no such thing as a not so traumatized autistic adult. Like, it doesn't exist yet. Maybe we'll get there, but, you know, so if you work with autism, you work with trauma, and so we have to know that, like, it's okay to apply some of those trauma, you know, techniques and kind of frameworks. It's the same thing. It's just, you know, sometimes my body is the thing that is traumatizing me. Sometimes it's the grocery store, and sometimes it's my job that wasn't made, made for me. So in a lot of ways, it's probably, we're probably doing pretty similar work.
Jenn 57:20
Sure sounds like it. This is so wonderful. I want to honor your time, but thank you so much for joining and for talking with me. I'm looking forward to finding other ways to collaborate and for our work to intersect. For sure,
Kory 57:31
I would love that. Thank you so much.
Jenn 57:33
Great.
Speaker 1 57:42
You.
Jenn 57:42
Thank you for joining us for this week's episode of on trauma and power. If this conversation resonated with you or you want to hear more, we'd love for you to subscribe, share or leave a review. Your support helps these stories reach more people. For more information about today's guest, visit heal with cfte.org/podcast, follow us on Instagram at on trauma and power to stay connected and continue the conversation, to learn more about all that we have to offer here at the Center for trauma and embodiment, including training and education for mental health movement practitioners and community leaders interested in innovative, body based interventions, head to heal with cfte.org Thank you for being a part of This exploration with me. Until next time, take care. You.
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