Jenn Turner 0:00
Hi everyone. I wanted to share a quick reminder about an opportunity for healing professionals who want to deepen their work with somatic trauma informed practices. The trauma center trauma sensitive yoga certification program is our 300 hour online training that supports practitioners around the world in offering safe, embodied healing experiences grounded in decades of research and practice. Our next cohort starts in September, and applications are open until August 15, and if you still need to complete the required 20 hour foundational training, you can join one anytime. Our facilitators offer them online and in person all year long, to learn more, start your journey with us at Trauma sensitive yoga.com I hope you enjoy today's episode. You Jenn, welcome to on trauma and power. I'm your host. Jenn Turner, co founder of the Center for trauma and embodiment. I'm so glad you're here with us. Each episode, I sit down with different experts, educators, authors, survivors and practitioners, sharing different trauma informed experiences across various fields, join us as we explore the complex intersections of trauma and power through embodied healing and diverse perspectives in both our Personal and collective healing journeys. Let's dive on in.
Hey jivana, thanks so much for joining me.
Unknown Speaker 1:57
Yeah, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. I
Jenn Turner 1:59
love having conversations with you. So I'll introduce you, kind of to our guests, and then hand it over to you to guide us through some meditation. So for those of you who don't know, jeevana Heyman is a pioneering yoga teacher, author and activist known for founding accessible yoga, a movement dedicated to making yoga inclusive for everybody, inspired by early practice with his grandmother and renewed during the AIDS crisis in San Francisco, Jimena discovered yoga is power to heal both internal and communal wounds. A long time ACT UP volunteer and hospice support worker, he channeled his grief and activism into cultivating self love, compassion and service through yoga. He's the author of accessible yoga, yoga revolution and the Teacher's Guide to accessible yoga. In 2014 he launched the 38 hour accessible yoga training, which he continues to offer through the accessible yoga school, an online platform that he co founded with Amber Carnes that centers equity and accessibility in yoga, you can find Jeevan a warmly guiding practitioners to step into their own wisdom, support others and carry yogas healing beyond the mat. David, that was so nice,
Speaker 1 3:19
like, I don't even know that bio you, like, wrote that or something that was incredible.
Jenn Turner 3:24
It's beautiful. All the work that you've been doing, and even the connection to your grandmother. I was like, oh, I want to explore that a little bit too. And just he learned about it. Yeah. Thank you so much for bringing your wisdom, and I guess I'll hand it over to you if you want to guide us a bit.
Speaker 1 3:39
Okay, yeah. So I thought I can lead what I call a yes meditation so you can make yourself comfortable. Maybe sit back if you're in a chair, can have your eyes open or closed, of course, because it will be trauma informed. And for this practice, the idea is that while you're sitting and noticing what's going on in your mind whenever a thought comes, you could say the word yes. And a thought could be a lot of things. A thought could be words that come to you. Could be images. Could be anything. It could be a sound that you hear, or light that you see, whatever, whatever movement happens in your mind. You could consider that a thought and simply say the word yes, and then let it go and say wait for the next one. So let's maybe take a let's take a breath first, maybe a deep inhale and long exhale, so just maybe even a stretch, inhale deeply, exhale slowly, and then spend just a minute here, observing your mind, saying yes, whenever a thought comes, you.
Speaker 1 5:10
Couple more seconds, saying yes, if a thought comes, I
Speaker 1 5:31
and then to end you can take another breath and long exhale, opening The eyes, if they were closed, and maybe re connecting with your space, your physical space, wherever you are. Maybe look around or back at the screen, if you're joining us visually, I don't know, or listening. Thanks for that. Hope that was useful.
Jenn Turner 5:58
Thank you so much. That was great. I've never done a yes meditation that was interesting
Speaker 1 6:04
to Yeah, what did you think
Jenn Turner 6:07
I really liked it? I think I've my relationship with meditation is fraught at best. And so I feel like oftentimes, when I sit in more of a traditional meditative space. There's, it's a lot about, no, it's like, don't think about, don't do that, you know. And so when you said yes, I was like, my whole body just softened. It was like, Fuck yes, let's go. Like, whatever comes up
Speaker 1 6:33
exactly. That's why I created it, honestly, because I had the same feeling about meditation. I was always trying to stop my mind or focus on something else, or, you know, change it. And it's funny because I there's a teaching in yoga called pradi paksabhavana. I don't know if you know it from the Yoga Sutras, which is about, sometimes people say it means replacing negative thoughts with opposite positive ones, or simply reflecting on negative thinking. And I like this idea of kind of, like shifting your the way you're perceiving your thoughts. You know that yoga teaches us, and so I thought that that's what made me think of this meditation a few years ago. Was like, Oh, wait, why don't I just shift my perception here to acknowledge what the mind does so well, which is, think, instead of, like, shaming it, you know, just like, oh, wow, this is the mind it's thinking, here it goes again, yes, so it's helped me a lot. Yeah, that's so
Jenn Turner 7:27
great. It really, it relates so much to how I feel. Like my talk therapy practice has evolved into one that is, you know, used to sort of, I was trained in a way, and I think a lot of us are around this idea that there are good and bad ways to cope, and there are good and bad ways to like, manage a situation, as opposed to just like, continuing to just like, flow and bathe in compassion. It's like there are just ways. Actually, there are ways that I make choices, to try to regulate myself, to try to advocate for myself. They may have consequences in other parts of my life or but they are just ways, and there's a softness to that and a release of shame, I think around that. Because we're complex creatures, we make all kinds of decisions that can feel really good and soothing in the moment and then have different implications in those midterm and long term.
Speaker 1 8:23
Wow, I love that. So helping you, you're helping people try to be more compassionate with themselves, as I was saying, to reflect in that
Jenn Turner 8:31
way exactly through this kind of, yeah, like not polarizing, the ways that we manage our the difficulties of being human,
Speaker 1 8:40
exactly, that's so interesting. I think polarizing is a really important word, because I think we see it happening in the world, and I think we do it internally a lot, like you said. So I love that. I love that just this, like, kind of accepting both, you know, both and and, like saying, okay, yeah, you know, I can be upset and kind of recognize it and see that part of me is okay, like, just like that kind of, to me, that's what yoga does so beautifully, is offer, kind of this, like, I don't know, a more embracing of our wholeness, trying to ask us to be something else. Of course. You know, when I say yoga, probably people think Asana, and that's not what I mean, necessarily. I mean Asana is part of it, but I mean just saying the yoga philosophy, mostly, I think, is quite beautiful in that way of just kind of seeing the limitations of the mind, but also recognizing that it's just the mind and that there's so much more to us too. It's not bad.
Jenn Turner 9:44
There's so much more to us. I think one of the things that I've sort of, you know, learned about accessible yoga and learned about your work, is that initially, when I started hearing about it, years and years ago, it was, like very much focused on the physical in my mind. You know around how and that, in and of itself, felt very expansive and welcoming. But as you have talked about yoga, and what that accessible yoga means is not just about the physical. In fact, it's so much more, or it expands well, well beyond that. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that. Yeah,
Speaker 1 10:21
to me, I think accessible yoga means, um, helping people get access to the fullness of yoga, which includes Asana. You know, like I said earlier, I mean, Asana is such an important piece, but it's just one piece of really a incredibly ancient and and very broad philosophy that is complex and incorporates many different traditions, actually. So yoga is really sometimes I wonder when people say yoga like what they mean, because, honestly, it means so many things. Even the word in Sanskrit has more meanings than almost any other word, by the way, the word yoga, yeah, this interesting, incredibly complex I always like to say just as an aside, just how grateful I am to even have access to these teachings and to be able to share them. So that's important to me, that I'm grateful to the people that have kept these teachings alive for literally 1000s of years in South Asia, mostly unknown teachers. And that kind of is heartwarming to me, just to think that here's some concepts and philosophy and tradition that has just lasted so long. And I always think how amazing it is that that we do have access. And yet I what I've noticed, especially when I was teaching. I started teaching in 1995 this is my 30th anniversary, actually, and I noticed there was a shift from what I had been, what I thought yoga was around that time, to something else, like it became very, I think, exclusive and very much about performance and asana and that. Like I said, Asana is amazing, but I think it can be misused sometimes to become more of a intense, physical practice that is not for everyone. And so I was really interested in sharing with my students, and I had been an AIDS activist, because as a gay man, there's so many people around me were sick and dying of AIDS in the 80s and 90s. And so I just, I'm already, I was already involved with the HIV AIDS community, and wanted to serve them, and I had been practicing for myself to just survive a really challenging time in my life when I was dealing with so much grief and anger, and yoga was basically keeping me going. And so I thought, wow, I could just share that with, you know, with everyone around me, and the accessible piece was just that, just like sharing the parts that wasn't that performance that some people thought it was, you know.
Jenn Turner 12:48
And I think that's like, you know, that is a bold pivot away from what, at least I mean, what I understand and, and even in my experience of starting yoga around like 2003 and feeling like there was still, still, and still is so much emphasis around the physicality that really has changed a great deal, and in no small part, I think, due to the work that you have done and and so many others too. I guess I'm also curious too. In reading your bio, the connection to your grandmother stood out to me as well. And I wonder if you could share just a little bit about that as well.
Speaker 1 13:23
Yeah, yeah, she was incredible. She was, she's kind of like a hippie, kind of, you would say, you know, she's like an older hippie, but she'd always been a spiritual seeker, like she just always, she had a really interesting life and a lot of struggle, honestly, and just always looked for spiritual lessons, and was always trying to find spiritual teachers, and was really drawn to yoga and the really expansive nature of the yoga teachings she was in. La, so that's kind of where there's, like, a lot of hippie culture going on in the 60s. And she was got really involved with Swami Satchidananda, who became my teacher, and then, you know, I later found out he was abusive, but she studied with him, and also Jay Krishnamurti, who was also here in Southern California, who was incredible teacher, and so she got to study with them, and she had a daily practice. And I was literally my earliest memories. It's hard to believe, but my earliest memories are of her practicing because it was around four years old that my sister was born and my grandmother came and moved in with us and took care of me, actually, because my mom could, like, deal with the new baby, and that's why it occurred to me later, oh, that's why she was so involved with me. Like my grandmother was basically, like, parenting me. At that point, my father was traveling all the time, hardly around, and it was really my grandmother that became, I think, like, central in my world as a four year old, and then for many years after that, and and yoga was so important to her, and she would get up every morning and do a practice, and she included me, you know, so I don't know. I have older kids now, and I tried to teach them yoga when they were little. I don't know how successful I was, but it can have an impact for. Sure, and then it really came back to me later. I didn't practice for, you know, ongoing until, like, my early 20s, and then I went back, and I was like, Oh yeah, I remember this. You know, this is a really amazing thing. And I can, I can engage with these practices to care for myself so that I can be more used to my community. And that's what I love about yoga, you know the service aspect. You know this idea of, like, cultivating energy and power within ourselves so that we can be of service to to those that we love, and just to the world. And I love that, I think that piece is, probably, is also, has also been lost a lot in contemporary practice. It's like, what are you doing with the energy you find?
Jenn Turner 15:41
How do you teach around that? Or what are teachings you offer around that? Pretty, because that's, I think that's really beautiful. And I think a lot of times people struggle with certain things that are self care in terms of, it's being selfish, or it's being self indulgent. And doing, you know, healing ourselves or caring for ourselves in service of others, is such a beautiful reframe. How do you are there other ways you speak to that?
Speaker 1 16:05
Yeah, I mean, I think there are many ways. One way, like you said, is self care, to reflect on what that really means, self care. And actually, it was mostly black activists during the Civil Rights Movement that created the concept of self care, mostly black women activists who use yoga as part of their self care so they can be more involved in that service that they were doing to the world, like Angela Davis, people like that, and I do think that's what they meant by self care. Was actually not just taking a bubble bath, you know, because you're tired, but actually looking at what, how do I care for myself so that I'm full enough to not be draining energy from the community and actually be able to provide something, to offer something at the same time, you know, I look at most of my students were disabled, and many are still and I and I think it's okay To care for yourself, like it's okay if that energy is all about you, and so like your practice can be about physical healing or emotional healing, if that's what you want. But when you feel like, I don't know, when you feel like you have extra energy or like you're okay, you can also then go do some service in the world. And the way it might look in a practice is just, first of all, having the space in your yoga practice to be reflective, to really reflect on, what do I need to do to care for myself? How can I care for my family, my friends, my community, like that, self reflection part is key. And then also, I would say, to dedicate our practice in some way. So something I share about all the time is that I think the end of a practice every for me, the end of every practice, whether it's a meditation or a longer asana practice, it always ends with some dedication, of like dedicating the benefits of my practice, whatever I found peace or energy, whatever it is, either to myself or to myself and to others. And I might be thinking of someone you know, like someone who I know is struggling right now. We're out to the world communities or entire populations of people that might be struggling. I mean, just I think that alone shifts the energy of the practice. So it's not so maybe I don't know. It's just not about me. Only it's about how am I connected to others?
Jenn Turner 18:34
As you were talking just then, I was also wondering about, how do you one thing I think a lot about is how when we turn toward ourselves, we are often turning toward pain as well, right? We're in grief, and sometimes we don't feel peaceful after yoga, or we don't feel relief. And I don't know, I guess I haven't really talked with you about this, or I'd love to hear your take on kind of that, and how you hold that space or normalize that experience that I think can be so powerful in terms of transformation, but not always that like blissed out, delightful feeling of yoga that we might people might be seeking.
Speaker 1 19:21
Yeah, I mean, I, I want to hear more about that from you, but I would just say, yeah, like, that's a good point. I mean, I'm not saying that it always ends in that moment of bliss. I think what yoga does is just it is helps to remove the obstacles to seeing more clearly. And I think that perception, you know, clear perception, is the key to yoga practice in Sanskrit is called Viveka kyati, which is to have, we call it discriminative discernment, or the ability to just yeah, like to have clear perception. And I think, you know, the obstacles to yoga are you. The main The first obstacle is our ignorance of Vidya, like ignorance of just reality, according to the yoga teacher, that we are spiritual beings having this temporary human experience. And I mean it is that human experience is filled with pain and suffering. That is still true. There is so much pain and suffering being human, everything we love we will eventually lose, right? I mean, that's just the nature of being a human. But I think yoga offers like a different perception, perspective, I should say, even perspective on that, which is that it's not that we're just the victims of that situation, it's that we actually can have a slightly different view of it. Part of us is okay, even as all that's going on. So I mean, yoga is a spiritual practice that connects us back to that, to our true nature, whatever you want to call it consciousness, or the divine, or whatever the word is you might call it Purusha or Atman in Sanskrit. And that's the point, is to connect us back to that, to even remember that it's there, kind of the witness, the one observing all of this, and at the same time acknowledge the reality that's happening, that we are struggling. You know, our body, mind is going through this really, really challenging time. So it's almost like just having a small part of yourself that is separate and Okay, trying to connect with that no matter what's going on. I don't know if that makes sense. I
Jenn Turner 21:35
love it. I love it. It's so hard to put to words, right? It's like all of this stuff when I was thinking about a side note, but I also want to speak to this. But thinking about how, like, what is our intuition? Our intuition is, to me, is so much of, like, interoception. Actually, it's so much of what we feel and sense in our bodies. But to try to put words and language to something that is so visceral and like sensory, spiritually oriented, is it's tricky. I think what comes up for me around this idea of turning toward the pain that can you know, that is the human experience. I think about it from two sides. I was like, my clinician brain was thinking that I'm like, Just also my own personal experience, which is probably more authentic to speak from, is that I have found, I think I really this codified for me when I lost my father, and I was like, really in the grief process. You know, he passed very suddenly, and it was just, it was so traumatic how it all happened and and I over the the next year, it felt like I would have times where I didn't want to feel that I was grieving. I didn't want to be in my grief. I was tired of it. I wanted to feel joy or pleasure or something else. And so I would turn away from it. But then it would start to like stockpile, almost. And for me, the shittiest feeling was when I when that stockpile was like it was high, or there was like a backlog of grief that I hadn't tended to and I had been like turning away from it, you know, and then when I would do either my yoga practice or some other kind of spiritual present moment practice that I might have, I was turning toward my grief, but it was a relief to not have this thing that I kept trying to push away from. It's like, oh yeah, there it is again. Yep, that's what's been here the whole time. That's why I've been irritable, or that's why I've been working too many hours or doing the things that I do, to try to not face those things, those painful parts of being human, and to me, the yoga helps to have a mechanism to turn toward that. So I'm like, right? I'm not I'm not avoiding it anymore. I'm gonna sit with it, I'm gonna move with it. I'm gonna roll around on my mat with it, but I get to be with it, and I have this tool alongside with me. I'm not just sitting in meditation, which, for me, personally, again, it's just kind of like a scary experience or just overwhelming, but like, I'm doing something, but I'm the I'm, I'm with my experience and turning toward it, and that there is relief in that, even if there's also pain in it.
Speaker 1 24:16
Yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that with me. I mean, I'm I've lost both my parents too, and I had a sense of, yeah, you know, my my mom passed. It was overwhelming, and it took me years. I mean, I'm still it's still painful for me, but it took me years to feel like I was myself again. And I am grateful that I have the yoga practices. I agree, I think. I mean, I keep going to philosophy and I'll stop in a minute. I should say one more thing about it, which is that in the Bhagavad Gita, one of the definitions of yoga is to stop identification with suffering. So it's like, I don't think, I don't think it's about dissociation, but I think it's what you're describing, which is to stop identity. Fine with the suffering. So it doesn't. It's like actually creating a little space from it doing the practices, like you said, I think that's what you're describing. It's almost like it gave you enough space from it to actually be able to experience it. That's interesting. You can do yoga. Can help us from like, being so much like the one who's suffering to actually see, oh, wait, I'm actually, I'm feeling pain. I'm pain. I'm feeling pain. And I think that gives us the space to feel the feeling, and also still be human, or still be ourselves. Do you know what I mean? We don't just become that. That's not that story. It's like the story takes over, and it becomes like, you know what I mean, you know that is, like, it's a subjective reality, yes, versus like, wait, I can actually see the story a little bit. I recognize that, yeah, part of me is okay, and part of me is really messed up. Like, part of me is totally distraught and, like, overwhelmed with pain and grief, and I need to feel those feelings. But even, even as I feel them, it's like, I'm not completely lost. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's part of me is okay. I don't know how to say it. Other than that, it's it just, I think it gives me hope, like, and that's all, yeah, the practice give me hope that part of me is okay, no matter what. You know that that's I feel like what the teachings offer is a way to connect with that piece and and it doesn't have to be verbalized, like, it just can happen, as you said, like being in it, like it's like doing it, like you do some Asana, you do some pranayama, maybe not meditation, maybe you do relaxation. But it's like, it gives creates space. It just allows you to see a little more objectively. And that's just changed my life so much. And I think for many, really, anyone who's practicing, I think that's probably why, on some level, you know, to have some space from our suffering is really, yeah, it's powerful.
Jenn Turner 27:01
Yeah, one of the things that we like to talk a lot about in here are power dynamics. And I wonder if you might Anna talk about kind of your approach to whether it's student, teacher relationship or just in general, creating safer spaces, and what that looks like. But you know, and as much as you like to speaking to inherent power dynamics that are present,
Speaker 1 27:28
I love that. I love that isn't that the name of the podcast, right, is trauma and power. I mean, I love that because I think it's so important and not talked about enough. And I don't just mean the trauma piece, but just like the power piece, like how yoga and spiritual practice in general connects us, or gives us access to tremendous power within, within ourselves, that's kind of, you know, it's like, if we find that place, it's like a place where we're Okay, no matter what. Like, what's more powerful than that than, like, absolute, like, freedom from whatever's going on in the world, you know? I mean, like, be able to actually feel like I'm okay, or whatever it is that you can do to connect with that place inside is incredibly powerful, but I think that's why it's so abused, you don't I mean, like, I think that's why there's so much, there's so many problems in yoga and and the spiritual communities in general, I mean, religions and yoga, there's like, so much abuse that happens. And I was just leading a training this weekend, and I asked them that question, you know, why is there so much abuse in yoga? Like, I want to know, why? Why don't we what is the common factor here that we're missing? Like, what is going on that's allowing this to happen? I don't know. I guess you're asking me. You
Jenn Turner 28:46
can ask, you can answer with a question. I mean, yeah, but it's, it's, it's hard for me sometimes to think about like, the overarching like, what is the thing other than like, I also see it in increments as well or but I guess I'm curious too around, you know, one of the things in sort of the trauma sensitive yoga world and in our work is we talk so much about power dynamics and how we have to continue to examine and look at ourselves, not just in a performative way of like I'm going to share power, but really look at, you know, our relationship with control, classroom organizing, you know, wanting people to follow us, feeling like the way to help is to have an answer, all of this stuff that is so fundamental, I think, to often, how we're taught to be helpers In the world and to unlearn those things is it's no small task, and it's ongoing. It's continuous. Yeah,
Speaker 1 29:47
thanks for bringing it back to reality. I mean, I definitely have a lot of thoughts about that, like how to teach in a way that's respectful of that dynamic and cognizant of the power dynamics that occur in yoga. But I guess. Just, I guess I just want to reflect on like, the reason why it's so important is that so much power is is accessible through these practices. Like, that's why there's so much abuse. And like, again, like through religions too. You see the same thing. I think, I think spirituality is the biggest sorts of source of power that we have at our disposal, individually, and so that can easily be misused and abused by teachers and gurus or whoever, because it's it talks, power is intoxicating, you know, and I think people take advantage of that in the yoga world so well.
Jenn Turner 30:36
And that's true also, right? That feeling. I mean, maybe you've had this experience. I think maybe most yoga practitioners have when someone leaves your class and is like, Oh, my God, thank you so much for that thing, because they're having their own experience that they're sort of coupling with you. But really, it's their experience, exactly, but in that moment, right? It can be, it can soothe our stuff, to be like, you're welcome, of course, yeah, do, do lead a good flow, you know, and it's sort of like, that's those are those moments, incremental moments, where we have to check ourselves. I think
Speaker 1 31:08
totally, that's why we need to have a practice. And it's not because of what people think like. People think, Oh, you need to have a yoga practice as a teacher so you can, like, do all the poses really well or something. But that's not it. You have. The reason you have to do a practice as a yoga teacher is to keep your ego in check,
Jenn Turner 31:22
right? That's why therapists should go to therapy. And if you have a therapist who's never done therapy as a flag on the field,
Speaker 1 31:28
yeah, the same with yoga teachers. I mean, I'm just gonna say like they need to do a practice so that they can be conscious of their ego and the way it's projecting into the world, because that's what yoga is for, is to start seeing yourself, to see clearly, to gain that perspective, like I mentioned earlier, and to recognize that you're human, just like everyone else, no better or worse than anyone else, and that you each have role to play. And in this moment, I'm playing the role of teacher, and someone else is the student, and that's great, right? But it doesn't mean that I'm any different than them. It just means that I had some experience and knowledge, and I'm sharing that moment, but they're the ones getting access to their own individual power through these practices and and I'm basically just lucky to have access to them like a vehicle for these teachings to come through me. And if I get caught up in that ego trip, then I'm in trouble. What you know, like I get caught up, I'll suffer more, to be honest, if I allow like that, those compliments to come in and really take them in, it's like, then I get stuck. Or if it's like, if I get in social media, like, I'm really caught up with how many people like me or follow me and all that. Or if I want to be a famous yoga teacher, it's a trap. It's like, it's the opposite of yoga, exactly. So there's things you can do in the class, like, as I basically my last book, The Teacher's Guide to accessible yoga, is exactly that. Like, that's the theme I say in the book, is how to recognize the power you hold as a teacher, and how to share that with students in a way that is respectful to them and to you. You know, that creates some safety. One example that I give, I like acronyms, so I use the ABCs of accessible yoga and a is agency. That meaning that students have agency over their practice, the bodies themselves, right? They get to choose what they do, how they do it, no matter what I saying as teacher, it's ultimately their choice, right? So I need to recognize their agency and remind them of that as well, and tell them, It's your practice. Do whatever you like. Don't do it. You have ultimate freedom here, but B is boundaries, so that, in a way, there's not ultimate freedom, because this is a yoga class, and there's other people in this space, so you have other students that I'm responsible for, and me as a teacher, I need to keep myself safe. So, yes, you have freedom, but only in so much as that what you're doing is safe within this container of being a yoga class. And then C is collaboration. And the way that we resolve any tension between your agency and my boundaries is through coming together in a collaborative teacher student relationship, or potentially peer student student relationship, if there's conflict there, which probably tends to be this case, more so than actually, teacher student conflict. I mean, like you took my space, I like to sit over there. That's where I put my mat. Or I want the room warmer. I want it colder. I want the window open. I close you know that stuff, but like collaboration, that we come together in relationship, like that's how these things are resolved, and to recognize that that's my role as teacher, to hold that space so that I can help students resolve that, either through me, with me, or with each other. And that's what part of the yoga is. And teaching yoga is that is like giving them freedom, but also within a container.
Jenn Turner 34:44
Absolutely, I love that, and that's so I love your ABCs. I love a we love an acronym over here, too big time. Yeah, that's beautiful. And I think I was just in a conversation last week, the other day, actually. Really about this, this piece around showing up as a helper, caregiver. What are we going to think about ourselves, teacher? That we get to have boundaries too? Which, of course, yes, but sometimes it can get squishy, because I think we're trying to serve others. It's like we also have to care for ourselves in this work. Maybe that comes brings us back to the beginning, where we started. But like, started. But like having boundaries around how we show up, what we do, what we're willing to not do, and being clear about that, I think, is so important,
Speaker 1 35:34
right? I mean, that's the thing about I'm curious what you think about this actually, around trauma informed yoga. I sometimes worry that you know, you're taking yoga teachers who may only have 200 hours of training in teaching yoga, and then kind of, I mean, we're giving them more more education, obviously, so we have the time to spend and, like, give them information. But sometimes I worry that we give them too much of a sense of that. They're like therapists, and I'm a Yoga therapist, so I kind of get this piece too. It's like, there's a there's a lot more training that goes into being a yoga therapist, from a yoga teacher. But sometimes I think if we train people a little bit around trauma, then they go into a space and think they can handle that. You know what I mean? Like they think they can deal with people's trauma. And I, my thing is always like, you just want to avoid triggering people and not deal with their trauma as much as possible, because that's not within our scope of practice. Like we just try to create a sense of community and safety to the best of our ability, and then kind of just, I would say, like, refer out pretty much immediately if something does come up. Do you know what I mean? Like, totally. I
Jenn Turner 36:39
mean, that's our stance too. I think, you know what's I think we're always dealing with trauma. There's always trauma in the room. And if we know how to create things in a more trauma informed space, knowing that that's also going to be so individualized, depending on the person, that a lot of it is how we show up in relationship, I think that creates the like foundation for all of that work and and then it's not about treating trauma. It's actually about not going into the trauma. It's about acknowledging that it's there, but not pulling for it, not seeking it. It's not exposure, you know. And I think what I find is that folks who do the foundational training with us, that's like a 20 hour training Usually, after that, they're like, oh shit, I need a lot more training, which is exactly what we want. We don't want people to leave that feeling emboldened to do something they're not prepared or it's not safe for them to do. And that's why we ended up developing the 300 hour training program. Is because and even that we're not going into the trauma. We're creating a trauma informed space where we understand, we might understand some things about trauma cognitively, but we're not like process doing like processing work with people, because it's just it takes a lot of experience and practice. And what I will say is that as a trained therapist, there's the training that I believe that we offered the 300 hour is much more detailed around trauma care than any training I got in my master's training or my therapy training, like we really, you know. And I think that that's part of it too, is that because trauma is So somatic and sensory, talk therapy training is is just too cognitive sometimes to fully understand and hold it. You know?
Speaker 1 38:30
I guess that's, yeah, that's all I was thinking. Is that it really, it's a the way we respond to trauma and the students depends so much on our our scope, I guess, our scope of practice, like where we are in our training and our background. And sometimes I feel like we talk about it all as like, what in one way, right? Like yoga and trauma is like this one thing, and it's really so much more complex, probably because of that relationship, like you said, and but I like that you mentioned. It goes all goes back to relationship. I think you just said, because I totally agree. I always, I always talk about that with my students too, that or the teachers that I train. It feels to me like we don't honor the teacher student relationship enough, and we always look to make it more, not always, but a lot of times, that's where the problems come along, like the abuse within yoga, for example, often happens because there's a romantic relationship or sexual relationship that's inappropriate, and it feels to me like, why can't we honor the teacher, student relationship and recognize the power that that holds and that it's it is a relationship already, and it's enough. Do you know what I mean? Like, you don't need more, right?
Jenn Turner 39:40
Right? And we, we like to talk about this sense of like us as facilitators, that we are facilitating an experience, and I'm not teaching people about and it's true in the trauma sensitive yoga space. It's like, there's not, it's not about really teaching someone okay, this shape is good for this. Trauma. There's none of that, right? It's really about facilitating self discovery through embodiment and through yoga practice. And that, to me, is that's where the healing work is. Is like self knowing, self discovery, learning that, wow, when I do, you know, when I lift my arms overhead, I get really activated and triggered. So I'm not going to do that anymore, but, like, I can't know that for someone. But if I can create a container where that knowing and that exploration is safe enough for them to do, then they get to know that. They get to learn that about themselves.
Speaker 1 40:36
Yeah, and I would, I always say the same thing around accessibility to that it's like, it's impossible to make something 100% accessible, because we aren't inside people's bodies and minds, so we don't know what they actually need any given time. And so all we can do is, like, create this environment that cultivates access. So, like, it gives people the power to find their own way. You know, sometimes I people ask me, like, how am I going to teach all these students at the same time and make it accessible to all of them, like, in a group class, right? And I would say it's not like, like, if you're teaching cobra pose, it's not like you have to make Cobra teach 20 different versions of Cobra pose to each person in that room. It's like, learn how to teach this pose in a way that actually empowers people to find their own Cobra. Yes, exactly. I think it's the same around this, all this stuff. It's like, just give people a way in that feels like it feels welcoming and also personal, like they can make it their own. And I think sometimes that there's been, like, a one size fits all approach to asana practice in particular, but to yoga in general, that feels misguided. So, yeah, I feel like what we're both doing, it sounds like, is trying to help people find their practice, to find their their way. So
Jenn Turner 41:53
true, yeah, it's yeah, it's really interesting to the 20 different Cobras. Yeah. I think that comes up in so many other, so many ways. And it's like when I can trust myself to move or explore my body without needing someone to tell me the exact it just it changes. It changes the relationship to yoga and to my body. And, yeah, yeah, that's great. And I think again, in that is knowing that I don't have to please you. So, like, if you're, if you're teaching me, and you're inviting me to find my own expression, I'm not like, well, but would it look cool if I did the really, this one or or I want him to think this thing of me that I'm a good student, right then we're back in that all that stuff, oh
Speaker 1 42:46
yeah, that's huge. I think maybe the most important thing that we're having that we're not talking about in contemporary practices, like competition with ourselves and other people, it feels like and trying to impress, like, just an impression that it might make, like thinking, Oh, the teacher is going to like me, like that kind of, honestly, garbage that it's just human nature to go through. But I think it causes a lot of pain and suffering and injury and is distracting. It distracts us from actually practicing. I think that's another thing I talked about in my last book. It's just like the just like the T. I think the tone you said as a teacher is huge, like being welcoming, inviting, but also making it light. Like, part of me, I use a lot of humor actually, when I teach, and I think that something about lightening the environment and making it a little more fun. And like, I'm not say a game, but like, there's, there's an element of play I actually think, to me, helps with that piece, the competition that is just really dangerous, honestly, and distracting from getting to what yoga really is. So I don't know, just like making it well, finding the way to use humor and fun and kindness, just to be as welcoming as possible, to cultivate a sense of belonging among people. So because if you feel like you're welcome and you're belonging there, then you don't maybe have to feel as competitive or try to impress anyone, necessarily as much, right? If it's your place, yeah,
Jenn Turner 44:20
I'd love that. I want to honor your time. I could talk with you for hours.
Unknown Speaker 44:25
I love things on my mind to tell
Jenn Turner 44:28
you, but I know I feel like there's more we have to do another installment, and also just hang out sometime. I really always enjoy our conversations. They get me thinking, wondering, questioning, all the good stuff me too.
Speaker 1 44:39
And actually, you know, I don't know if it's okay to say that you're going to teach one of our teach one of our programs. So we have before, but you're coming back for our trauma and yoga series, which I'm so excited about.
Jenn Turner 44:48
Thank you. Yeah, me too. Me too. Well, thank you so much. And we'll link to all the things so folks can find you your books and the work that you're up to.
Unknown Speaker 44:57
Thank you. Thanks a lot. Bye.
Jenn Turner 45:08
Thank you so much for being with us today to find out more about today's guest, head to heal with cfte.org/podcast follow us on Instagram at on trauma and power, to stay up to date on future episodes and be sure to like and subscribe to on trauma and power. Wherever you listen to your podcast, we'll see you next time. Take care you.
