Jenn Turner 0:00
Jenn, welcome to on trauma and power. I'm your host. Jenn Turner, co founder of the Center for trauma and embodiment. I'm so glad you're here with us. You each episode, I sit down with different experts, educators, authors, survivors and practitioners sharing different trauma informed experiences across various fields, join us as we explore the complex intersections of trauma and power through embodied healing and diverse perspectives in both our Personal and collective healing journeys. Let's dive on in
I'd love to welcome you. Dr Vian, I'm so glad you're joining me for this conversation and joining us just to give a little frame about who Dr Vien is. She's a counseling psychologist and an associate professor in the Department of Psychology at the University of Minnesota Duluth. She is one of the community engaged scholars with UMN office for public engagement. She serves as core faculty in the clinical counseling graduate program and directs what is beloved to the Center for trauma and embodiment, the mind body trauma care lab. Thank you so much for being here. Vienne, thanks Jenn for having me absolutely so I think you might have a soft landing for us. Is that right, and then we can kind of ease us
Speaker 1 1:41
in a little something. Yeah, I was thinking, because we're talking about community engaged work. Today I'll offer a practice from my dad's heritage or cultural background, in terms of growing up in Vietnam and having Buddhist culture be the predominant way of being, at least where he grew up in the mountains. So this practice is called four directions, eight sub directions, knowing that there are so many different ways of being in this practice, many different ways in which you might choose to send your energy out and however many directions. So I'm just offering one variation of it, beautiful, great. So whenever you feel ready, you're welcome to find any starting place in your space that you'd like to begin this practice. So you might choose to sit down on the ground in your back, against a chair or the wall. You could choose to close your eyes here or find a point of focus in front of you and wherever you may be, know that anything that I offer is simply an invitation, a possibility. One way of visualizing ways in which energy radiates from you, one way of visualizing how you take in energy, how you take in support, you could start by noticing whatever is supporting you in this space, whatever is holding you up in this space, perhaps that's The ground or a chair, you're invited to notice that connection between your support and your own body. Perhaps you notice differences or similarities and textures or temperatures between your support and your body, perhaps there doesn't quite feel like any temperature or texture that comes to mind at this point, and feel Like you just bring to mind your sense of East doesn't have to be the true Cardinal east, whatever East feels like to you in this space, Thinking of the direction in which the sun rises, perhaps, as you look to you your east, you might bring to mind your family, your ancestors might acknowledge. Knowledge, the land and labor of the place which you you're in, to bring your attention to the self, whatever self is for you and in your minds, I perhaps bring your mentors. To mind. May choose to express gratitude to your mentors or acknowledge your mentors. There's no need to bring about gratitude or any sentiments. The invitation is acknowledging, perhaps naming. And when you're ready, you should bring your attention to your West. Whoever it feels like the sun is setting. You might think of your immediate family, perhaps those who were there as you grew up, who raised you, those immediately in your life. And then you should bring your attention to your north, whatever direction the North Star feels to you, you keep bringing to your mind's eye, your friends,
Jenn Turner 6:32
your support,
Speaker 1 6:36
chosen family, And then perhaps you connect with the ground beneath you. You're a Nadir, thinking of all those who have supported you and carried you to where you are now, whether or not you know their names, any strangers or acquaintances who support you throughout the day, the seemingly small favors, seemingly small acts of gratitude, the invitation is noticing whoever is supporting You, then you could direct your attention to your zenith, the area above your head, and perhaps you bring to mind the universe or any spiritual being that resonates with you. In this moment, you choose to acknowledge that being, or the universe, Mother Nature. And as you take in the whole of the universe, you might choose to check in again in your four directions, in any of your sub directions, whenever you're ready, your eyes are closed, perhaps you notice light on your eyelids. Wherever you are, you might choose to blink your eyes open and return to your center.
Jenn Turner 8:22
Thank you so much. That was beautiful. Is that something that your father taught you, or you learned like on your own, because of
Speaker 1 8:31
the general concept in Vietnamese he taught me, and the idea so like direction, the directions, it kind of translates to roads, like the idea of Fung and hung and my the second part of my middle name is one of those words. My middle name is actually the last queen in Vietnam. But yes, it sounds like also the idea of direction.
Jenn Turner 8:59
That's so cool. It's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that with us.
Unknown Speaker 9:04
Thanks. Thanks, Peter, yeah, yeah,
Jenn Turner 9:08
you know, and I, as we were kind of meditating, there was thinking a little bit too about how I know you as a fellow colleague, and we've worked together, but also I know a little less, and would love to hear more about what even brought you into, sort of the counseling psychology field in general, what drew you into that. And if you might talk a little bit about the work that you do. But I don't know, I love an origin story, so if you're open to it, it'd be cool to hear,
Speaker 1 9:39
yeah, origin story probably started millennia ago, I guess, right, go as far back as you want. Yeah, well, I found my way into psychology after undergrad. I had always done aspects related to the idea of. Of counseling. Even in elementary school, I did peer counseling. So I learned a lot of skills from from Mrs. Prince, I remember her name. Then, even in college, I co directed a peer counseling group that we had on campus. Took enough psychology classes to almost minor minus one class, but I'd done those things more so for fun or of curiosity and interest and this general idea that psychology relates to all of us as human beings, without really this intention of going into any sort of area of clinical work. So after undergrad, I enter grad school for public health and work in that area for a bit, and I was finding that systems level change is definitely important, and I wanted more of this interpersonal aspect as well, more direct connection with folks in addition. So we have, like, all these big data sets being in epidemiology, yet I was missing the people interaction, and so I decided to go back to grad school and get my doctorate in Counseling Psychology. Now I'm in academia, which is something that I knew I was interested in even after undergrad, because there's the there's so much possibility to explore and learn and cultivate curiosities and and ask new questions and find answers. So that
Jenn Turner 11:37
that's very cool. I was going to ask about the research component. But it sounds like, if you've always been a sort of asking questions and wanting to find out answers, does that feel like it was sort of a natural thing for you to go into the research aspect? I'm curious about it selfishly, because it's so different from my brain in terms of being a researcher. So I just, I think it's really fascinating. And I'd love to also hear more about the kind of research you do that is, in my mind, anyway, different than how I was trained as a therapist, to think about research. I realize other folks are doing community based research, but I've learned about it from you, so I'd love to hear more about that. Yeah,
Speaker 1 12:23
for me, I think research is not only the intellectual piece of learning and intellectual growth, it's also this ability for me to connect with folks, because I do want my research and actually teaching and in general, to be more than intellectual exercises, more than academic exercises. So even with the research I participate in or direct, there is this in my mind, the research itself is an intervention on layered on top of the intervention that might be tested. So along with participants, hopefully benefiting from the intervention in some way, there's also the connection that I build with community partners, and I think that in itself, can be an intervention for for all of us, like for me, feeling that sense of connection for community partners, hopefully feeling heard and hopefully feeling like the needs that they want assessed are getting are getting met.
Jenn Turner 13:31
That's so fascinating. I don't think I've heard you describe it like that, of like an intervention layered on top of the intervention. And to me that really challenges some of the experiences that a lot of folks have in various communities, of feeling exploited by research or maybe not included in the process. And so this is such a different approach. And it was really cool to hear you talk about doing the peer counseling or peer kind of led work, because it's like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. And then you would kind of approach your research in a way that had maybe some roots with that, or at least that was a connection I made
Speaker 1 14:08
anyway, yeah, yeah, this general sense of increasing access to care and not having that care necessarily stem from providers or layers of hierarchy or the system telling us that these are the folks who can provide adequate care, whereas before these systems existed, people in community were caring for each other,
Jenn Turner 14:34
so looking to go in and research and learn, but also To cultivate that sense of community with one another and and community care.
Speaker 1 14:45
Yeah, exactly. Cool. That's very cool.
Jenn Turner 14:49
Um, another thing I know you've talked a little bit about, um is with me anyways, around pacing of work and kind of slowing down things. Um. Um, how does that show up for you? Or how does that? How do you even take that approach, particularly if you're working with an organization that may want to move quickly, or be accustomed to someone coming in and having like a certain pace,
Speaker 1 15:17
I find more so organizations that want to move quickly might stem more from academia. Perhaps, I do feel as though community organizations, they're already so busy with everything that they're doing, all the services they're providing, all the folks that they're serving, that any aspect of research is really on top of what they're currently doing. So there's only so much that we can only go so fast, and even if it seems like something is moving fast, and thinking about some of our projects and having some of the assessment measures created relatively quickly, it's more it's also the idea that those relationships were built a long time ago, and those connections were built even further. For that at anything that at least my lab does for research, it's grounded in prior research, rather from my lab or or from the literature. At this point, a lot of it comes from previous iterations, from similar research projects, so then we can fine tune it to the community. So it's like, even if things feel quick, they're the timeline for it actually began way earlier. Coming back to origin story, all connects, right,
Jenn Turner 16:38
right? That's great, right? And then also that makes sense too, around the relationship building with a particular community. I wonder if we could talk a little bit about some of the projects even that we work together on. And I think about, you know, sometimes my role to come in as a trainer, so I might be training someone or training a group. I think about the work that we did in the tribal community in South Dakota, for example. And so I'm coming in as a trainer thinking, okay, how can I learn from this community? How can I collaborate in the training live time? But I don't think I ever really asked you, as you were coming into that training and witnessing it and being a part of it. What are you looking for, listening for, and can you just talk a bit about your side of that project?
Speaker 1 17:31
I think for me, entering, in a way, it's nice that I get to serve as this third party. So I'm not attached to the training outcomes themselves. I know that you also come in with open an open mind, if the idea that, like my organization isn't directly doesn't have a conflict of interest, I suppose, with the training, and I've not somebody who's being directly served from it, so as a third party, it's nice that I kind of get to observe and participate. And I I come in with this lens of believing in the portions of data, and that that is something I actually wrote about my personal statement from for graduate school, being in student government in undergrad, and I remember trying to propose something, actually, I can, I could talk about this, this idea of sexual violence happening on campus, and trying to have a training be required for certain groups on campus. The question at the time, acknowledging I was in college in the, you know, the 2000s because I feel like there's more awareness now, but it's like, Is this really happening? Where's the data? Where? Like, how is this happening? Being with the peer counseling group and this extra Assault Response Unit, it's like, we know that this is happening. I can't give you any data. It just like, kind of like, take my word for it. And of course, that doesn't go very far. So I know I didn't do research in undergrad. And exiting undergrad, I was like, Okay, this data thing is kind of important. And being in public health, how can you make changes without data? And so I come from the sense of wanting to see how best to collect data that represents folks in the community, and knowing that that data can be used for further steps, whether that's applying for funding, which is a big aspect, I suppose, also informing next directions and informing practice future research, clinical work, any policies or procedures. So I come in with this, in this belief that data is important, even if it hasn't quite been explored in community yet. And and I. Think that also the idea of collecting data in itself can be an intervention, because it gives folks an opportunity to reflect on how they're doing for those who are completing the surveys or completing the interviews, and I think it gives the community leaders a way to to reflect on what on the needs of their community, and to have a say in input on the direction their community, that's
Jenn Turner 20:25
beautiful. Yeah, yeah. All of that data is so powerful now too. For sure, I do feel like there is in almost any aspect of the nonprofit that we run, even like you're saying in conversations where you're trying to talk about the prevalence of trauma, the prevalence of sexual assault, we are used to getting having data like served up to us, so it's interesting, right? So if I'm going in and train, thinking about offering a training to people who live in community or serve community that's a unique community, like in South Dakota, for example, you know a largely indigenous community, or folks that are serving that indigenous community, I'm thinking about like, how do I adapt the model? How do I hear what's useful to them and take out sort of, some of the noise that may not be useful? Like, how do I get to know them? Sounds like you're coming in and thinking about it from a perspective of, what, what is this community? Who is this community? Who, who's here, but also like, what will serve them, or what, what information will be useful for them to learn from this? Are there other questions you're asking yourself when you're kind of just witnessing and getting to know folks and sitting in a training like that?
Speaker 1 21:41
Yeah, I think I also wonder, like, how may I best be stewards of their story? In academia, we talk about data stewardship and thinking of indigenous data sovereignty too, the idea of collecting data and that data belonging to the nation, to the folks from where the data come. And really we serve as kind of this, like we store the data in a secure server, so we're able to provide that piece, and it'll clean the data, manage the data, those aspects, and so I'm stewarding the data in that way. And I also want to ensure that whatever data is being stored, whatever data I'm collecting, aka, what are the stories that people are sharing? Stories kind of they usually get quantified in some sort or coded in qualitative analysis. But how can I hold their data, hold their stories in a way that's accurate and representative of them. So think about that aspect too. And not only does that depend on the validity of reliability of measures, it also depends on creating this space, or CO creating the space in which it doesn't seem extractive, like it doesn't seem like they're somebody's coming and extracting data from them. And so that importance of collaboration is is key for, yeah, for everyone, and I think the idea of community based data too, because we can talk about prevalence rates on a global level, or even like a state based or a smaller unit, yet the question comes to, okay, yes, but is it happening here? What's here this community,
Jenn Turner 23:36
and so does that mean that when you're going through the process that you are, there's more inflection points for consent where you might sort of maybe you collect some data, or you do some interviews, and you think, Wow, this we could go in this particular direction, or I'm noticing these themes, or is there a certain amount of autonomy that you need to be able to explore that? So then it relies on that building of trust that happened.
Speaker 1 24:05
Think a lot we tried to do up front in terms of developing the research protocol, procedures, checking in with how things are looking. I think you have the specific project in South Dakota, we had weekly meetings with the community collaborators coming up with what they wanted measured, how they wanted it measured. Then research assistants in the lab, Kelsey and Linda v you know, they did the the pilot interviews with folks and community to get feedback, to see how that was going, and then refined until there was a final interview protocol, which in itself has has questions that can go in different directions, and that way, they're called probing questions. That's kind of a odd terminology. So in a way, it's. It's structured in that way because I still come from this empirical mindset of, how can we do research that follows best academic practices, which means it has to be reliable and replicable, so by having some sort of an outline with that built in fixed flexibility, sometimes called that in teaching. Actually, with that built in fixed flexibility, then it can be something that's shared and that can be replicated. So I also believe in not trying to or not, not only knowledge hoarding, but also process hoarding. So a lot of my lab, we pre register our studies on the Open Science Framework, and then that way, anything that we any procedures we think about knowing that they're going to change per community, somebody wouldn't have to necessarily rethink the whole idea. Land. It also lays out what we're doing in an upfront manner, so that anyone who questions the validity of research sees where it's coming from. They see the foundation with it and why we're doing.
Jenn Turner 26:11
Love that transparency. Yeah, that's really that makes a lot of sense, I guess too. One thing that I'm wondering about that we haven't talked about yet is, you know why mind body, right? Talk a little bit about your origin story and kind of your innate curiosity around human behavior and psychology and why we you know who we are, but I'm wondering you know, because that's such a beautiful alignment for us with you, and that why we have been collaborators for so long, but curious what brought you to that kind of intersection of wanting to explore trauma through the mind body lens?
Speaker 1 26:52
I think a lot of it comes from lived experience and thinking about origins, beginning before our physical bodies are in a space for me that looks like transgenerational, intergenerational trauma, I think, particularly being born to refugee parents, when A combat war veteran both who entered this country completely on their own, when I would say without consent, in a way, in terms of US forces bringing them over. So that's why, I mean people don't often leave a country without any family. So there's a lot of trauma there, in terms of even being here, how much like that was by choice. And so my parents met in the States and I and even though it wasn't discussed at home, the effects of that transgenerational trauma, the grief and loss was definitely felt, and I think in a way, it was very palpable. And I had always found this connection to mind body growing up, this this sense of awareness of what's going on in my body practicing yoga in when I was younger, we even had a yoga unit in middle school. So I'm thankful for, yeah, growing up in a community where there were a lot of immigrant folks and folks who were willing to explore different ways of being, different practices, and so that had always seemed like a natural approach to me of living and being and finding comfort, trying to find a sense of safety within oneself. And then it really dawned on me in terms of bringing the body into psychology, until I was in in grad school, because obviously the body plays a big role in terms of public health. A lot of awareness of that, with public health being adjacent to medicine, and a lot of public health aligning with health care, mostly physical health care, but, you know, working on the mental health care aspect. And so when I started grad school, I had this poster on prenatal hot yoga, and then that's when somebody walked by and they looked at it, asked me what I was planning on doing for next steps now that I was in grad school for psychology, and I said I wasn't going to be exploring much of that anymore, because I was moving on to trauma research, more so. And then they said, Oh, you know, you can combine the two. There's this person in the School of Public Health, Doctor Carrie Clark, who does this work. And then that's when I found you all
Jenn Turner 29:55
so cool. It's interesting, yeah, and it's, um. Yeah, it's cool to think about those, those moments where the seeds are planted and and how the knowing maybe in your own body. I resonate with that too, the knowing of how I would either feel like I needed to rely on my body or feel at times betrayed by my body, and how that complexity sort of always a haunting part of my life, and then to feel like, oh, wow, this is something I can actually harness, and people are studying it, and I can learn about it. I mean, that's But it's interesting to think about it coming from the inside too.
Speaker 1 30:35
Yeah, that sense of empowerment we don't have, like, we definitely community support, and it's not this one person up here with these letters or certificates or licenses that is everything we have our own bodily wisdom.
Jenn Turner 30:53
I love how I've noticing too. I don't know if this is something you've seen, but like in the field of psychology in general, I do feel like there is more of an emphasis, and this might be, when I think about the field of psychology, I guess I'm thinking about clinical application, but I see more emphasis on lived experience being prioritized, that clinicians being encouraged to share some aspects of that, and also survivor or community led counseling or supports as much more of an integral part of the work and so which, to me, fits so beautifully with the kind of research and the approach that you take.
Speaker 1 31:36
Yeah, I think social support has been one of the few factors that, like across studies has been very consistent in terms of fostering recovery, fostering resilience, of because there's so many different facets of recovery, yeah, it's like social support consistently shows up as Being helpful, not only for intervention, but also prevention. So this idea of, even when a child grows up in a community of high adversity, their outcomes are going to be better when they have some sense of social support, even one adult, like the power of one adult, you know, and I do think psychology is acknowledging positionality more positionality statements are coming up. A lot more so researchers saying where, what identities there do they hold? What experiences are they bringing in that are relevant to the research? In the sense that it is our experiences influence the research that we do, and it influences our interpretation of the research, so being upfront about that and not completely separating the researcher from research. Yeah,
Jenn Turner 32:50
right. I'm wondering too, if you might share a little bit about how, like, if you're talking with someone who doesn't, maybe think about the connection between whether it's trauma and the body, the body and recovery. If there are data points you like to go back to from your research that you have led that kind of highlight, that and or something that maybe lights you up from that research where you're like, oh, this was such an interesting data point where this made me so excited to dig in more here.
Speaker 1 33:27
I think if I'm talking to folks every day, as nerdy as I am with stats and all that, I don't often bring that up in dinner conversations. It's more of a breakfast thing, but I think also the importance of drawing from lived experiences when I do have discussions around this idea of, okay, so Mind, Body trauma, like, what does that look like? What does that feel like? So even in presentations, I go to this exercise, this bodily exercise in which people think about what it's like moving from the warm indoors, and very apt for Minnesota, the cold outdoors. So this idea of being in the space that feels safe and warm, and then exiting and feeling like this gush of when this freeze, how our bodies, how our shoulders, so specifically. Let's focus on one area of our bodies, for simplicity at this point, like feeling like even thinking about it, perhaps hunching our shoulders up, and then being in this state of cold for so long, this idea of trauma that we might not even notice our shoulders are hunched anymore, and even upon exiting, our bodies can habituate that maybe our shoulders hunch up and we don't even notice. So this idea of even though we might not be noticing, there's going to be an effect on our body. Is maybe translate to soreness in our even referential soreness, you know, like in our neck or elsewhere. So that's usually my go to exercise. When that question comes up, I like that.
Jenn Turner 35:14
I like that. Can I borrow that at some point, getting older here where I am too, very helpful. And, yeah, anything about your work, either moving forward or an upcoming project, or something maybe you're in the midst of that you are pumped up about, or you want to like, you know, we can hype you up about, yeah, well,
Speaker 1 35:41
bring up the project that we have a starting date just exciting the embodied radical healing intervention that is so radical healing came from outside psychology, Dr Brianna French, co led, or led this, I guess, purview of the literature to translate it to this psychological framework for radical healing for communities of color. So these different facets of healing, despite or also because of the odds, leveraging that for healing within bipoc communities. And then, in addition to the intellectual, social processing of that, adding on embodied aspects so also having bodies serve as a tool for healing, being in community spaces with other bipoc folks leveraging that as a tool. So we have radical healing, plus embodied healing, body radical healing. So we have Maureen Nutter, who's a TC TSYS, who will be our interventionist, and thanks to the one yoga studio that you've facilitate trainings at that will be our site. That's
Jenn Turner 37:04
great. That's great. Do you have a start date for that? And then are there questions you're going in with,
Speaker 1 37:15
with this feasibility, acceptability and relevance for big ones, whenever there's anything offered that's new within a community. So for this, we have intervention that in which both models have existed, as you know, yeah, the integration of them have not quite been has not quite happened or been tested. So with that alone, wanting to look at feasibility, acceptability and relevance, plus a new community aspect, so definitely feasibility, acceptability, relevant and kind of before preliminary effectiveness. So I think sometimes folks come in thinking that we'll move right to outcome measures. Getting that groundwork is so important. So we will be looking at outcomes yet, or clinical outcomes yet. The importance is, how is this working for community? What refinements do we need? So we'll have different stages, so one stage, interviews, focus groups, and then using that to refine the second stage. Is
Jenn Turner 38:25
this a lifetime example of the slow pace? Van, yeah, what's, what are you looking for? You know, it's like, actually, uh huh. We're starting here, yeah. And then we're gonna go here,
Speaker 1 38:38
because this hold it, the idea of combining in body, addressable healing started when Dr French reached out to me in 20 fall of 2020 ish, maybe early 2021, so that's when we start talking about this possibility. And then we developed a group of folks to collaborate on how this integration will look and specifically apply for grant funding. And then three tries later, we finally got something, and now it's starting in January.
Jenn Turner 39:13
So some things forced you to slow it down. And then, yeah,
Speaker 1 39:17
you slow it down, check in, reassess,
Jenn Turner 39:24
anything that we didn't get to talk about today, that you were hoping we would talk about.
Speaker 1 39:28
I'm just glad to be here open to any questions. I appreciate all of our conversations.
Jenn Turner 39:34
I always learn when I talk with you. Wonderful. Thanks so much, Dr Vien, and hopefully we'll have you on again soon, because I'm as projects unfold, I'd love to hear more about them.
Speaker 1 39:44
Yeah, yeah, we'll have that timeline, great.
Jenn Turner 39:47
And if folks want to learn more about the work you do, we'll have links to your website, and they can check out your projects and things that are going on on our website. Great. Thanks.
Thank you so much for being with us today to find out more about today's guest, head to heal with cfte.org/podcast follow us on Instagram at on trauma and power, to stay up to date on future episodes, and be sure to like and subscribe to on trauma and power. Wherever you listen to your podcast, we'll see you next time. Take care you
